High-Intensity PEMF Explained: Pain, Performance & Recovery

Andy Smith 00:00 
A quick disclaimer before we begin. The PEMF Podcast does not contain any medical advice, and the content provided is for informational purposes only. If you have any health concerns, please visit a healthcare professional.

Welcome back to the PEMF Podcast. Today, we're joined by Scott Bader, who is the CEO of Pulse PEMF, one of the world's leading high-intensity PEMF companies. Scott oversees a company whose systems are used in over 30 countries, delivering more than one million treatments every year across professional sports, clinics, and home users. Scott, welcome to the podcast.

Scott Baider 00:38 
Thank you. Delighted to be here.

Andy Smith 00:39 
In this episode, we're gonna explore what makes high-intensity PEMF different, how it works, and why it's being adopted by elite sports, healthcare professionals, and wellness clinics across the world. We'll also discuss frequency, ATP production using PEMF on the brain, stacking PEMF with other therapies, and where Scott believes the future of high-intensity PEMF is heading. Uh, one of our previous episodes, we had Joe, who's one of your sales guys. Um, so, you know, if, if people wanna take a deeper dive into Pulse, they can, they can zip back and, and listen to that episode. But we had to get the CEO on, um, to give us, you know, where this whole thing began. So let's start with, um, some quick-fire questions. And what we'll do in this section is we'll ask you a couple of questions, one-two word answers, and then we'll take a deeper dive later on in the episode, if that's okay?

Scott Baider 01:27 
Perfect.

Andy Smith 01:28 
So what time is the best time to use high-intensity PEMF?

Scott Baider 01:33 
Yeah, so that's, that's a, a question that I think the answer is still evolving. Um, you know, it's, it's easy to say you can get benefits any time. Uh, I think the most important thing, and I, I think it's something that, uh, you know, you and Josh have done beautifully in the education that you've been doing to people on all ends of the spectrum, from home users to clinicians, is, uh, is any time you can work PEMF, including high intensity, into your schedule, and ideally with more consistency is the best. Uh, but you can get benefits from high-intensity PEMF morning, noon, or even night. We have some people that sleep on our systems overnight. So you really can get benefits any time.

Andy Smith 02:20 
Yeah. Good. And in your opinion, does frequency matter for high-intensity PEMF?

Scott Baider 02:26 
It does, yes. We, we, we believe it does. Uh, you know, our systems at Pulse operate within a limited range of frequencies, from one to 10, uh, but we do believe that even within that, you can get better outcomes if you use the frequencies. For example, if you have inflammation, you know, you, you did some trauma to an elbow, you banged it, you have some swelling. The lower frequencies, we believe, tend to work better. You can get that energy into the body, into the cells, without overstimulating tissue and cells that are already overstimulated. Inversely, if you move to some of the higher frequencies, you can help put that energy in where you can actually accept that movement at the cellular level and get more benefit without, again, creating more overstimulation.

Andy Smith 03:19 
And high intensity, low intensity, or both?

Scott Baider 03:22 
Yeah. So again, it, it's a great question. Uh, both for sure. You know, we believe that, uh, PEMF is just so fundamental to how our bodies can improve, our bodies as humans, and certainly as we've seen for animals as well, but both have their place. You know, our systems are designed to deliver low frequency all the way up to high frequency, because we have the ability to control both. We do think that the high frequency has a place. You know, it does deliver more power, and it delivers it faster, but both certainly have their place.

Andy Smith 03:59 
And pain relief or performance, which is the most common reason that people are using Pulse?

Scott Baider 04:05 
Yeah, so the, the reason people generally find out about Pulse, or hear about it, is for pain. It is what we generally get people, whether it's within the s- the sports environment or the clinical environment, uh, or even home users. People are in chronic pain in massive numbers, uh, around the world, and people often hear about PEMF and Pulse for managing pain. The performance and all the other benefits certainly are there, but generally, it's pain that gets them interested in hearing about us first.

Andy Smith 04:41 
Uh, what's the biggest myth about high-intensity PEMF?

Scott Baider 04:45 
So the biggest myth, I believe, is, uh, tied to the confusion around pulsed electromagnetic field, just in the name. It- it's a confusing name. People have heard things that do give them concern about magnetic frequencies and power lines and, and all of those different things. PEMF and high-intensity PEMF is certainly different, and much of that comes down to the low frequencies that we use, generally throughout PEMF, certainly within that ultra-low and low frequency range, and it's non-thermal. So it's very different than the things that do concern people. But again, the, the name is something that we've had for over 100 years, and it's something that, uh, you know, people are beginning to learn about. But because it's got a name that is not common, doesn't sound like a very commercially branded name, uh, people sometimes have to really be educated in terms of what it actually does and why it is safe.

Andy Smith 05:46 
And one theory... Oh, sorry. One therapy you'd most like to combine with high-intensity PEMF.

Scott Baider 05:53 
Yeah, so there's, uh, a number, a number of them. To, to pick one is difficult. You know, certainly things like red light th- Are amazing to do. Uh, we're seeing more that relate to oxygen, whether that's HBOT or hyperbaric, uh, or other oxygen therapies. Um, there's a system called the NanoVi, which we believe i- is very good. But, you know, we were just at a biohacking conference in Austin, Texas, and there was a, a group there that had a system that is used to help assess brain function and even do some brain training, and that group actually tested themselves and then went on our system and retested themselves with their brain system, and they got the best result that they had ever received, one of the individuals, after using PEMF. So I think there's a lot of different things. And the one that I would also say isn't necessarily a technology, but I think we all recognize how important it is, and that is sleep. Things that people can do to actually get more quality sleep in connection with PEMF and so many other things will certainly lead to, you know, better ability for people to recover and repair and certainly live more productive lives.

Andy Smith 07:14 
And what's the most underrated application of high-intensity PEMF?

Scott Baider 07:20 
Um, I'd like to say it's the brain because it's one of these emerging areas that people are recognizing you can use PEMF, and it's very effective to deliver a PEMF signal through the, through the head. Uh, but I would also say it's fingers. Uh, you know, I've seen so many people that are willing to change their lifestyle and invest in things that allow them to function, drive a car, write, type, uh, pick up a grandchild, and fingers are one of those really critical things that so many people, as they age, with arthritis and injury, have more limited use of fingers, and PEMF is one of the things that can be amazing even down to a finger.

Andy Smith 08:07 
And last one on the quick-fire, who's the most surprising person or athlete using Pulse?

Scott Baider 08:13 
Uh, oof. That's a good question. You know, for many of them, we, we don't use names. Um, I will say there's a, a high-profile person since the FIFA World Cup is going on right now, but one of the high-profile players is an avid user of our system. Uh, like many others, it's used for, uh, helping for managing pain, for helping to overcome injury, but also for better performance.

Andy Smith 08:41 
Mm-hmm. No, great. Thanks for that. And you mentioned the World Cup. Um, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm doing okay at the moment, but England went through last night, and, um, our games are a little bit antisocial compared to the American time. So I was up at, you know, 1:00 AM to 4:00 AM last night watching, uh, watching England go through, so.

Scott Baider 08:59 
I thought you might be.

Andy Smith 09:01 
Yeah. But it's fine. I've just come out of the HBOT, so I'm all full of oxygen. PE- PEMF in the morning, red light, I'm good to go, so.

Scott Baider 09:09 
There you go.

Andy Smith 09:10 
Okay. So, you know, our, our listeners to this, um, podcast, uh, sometimes will get questions, you know, why is it that you get, like, other companies, other brands, you know, what they would consider maybe, maybe competitors on the podcast. Um, but, you know, our, our mission here is to, is to unite the PEMF industry and to really give people an education around PEMF therapy and just, you know, everyone can raise the awareness and the education together. And for me, Pulse is a, is a brand which is a, you know, well-recognized brand, a great product, and, you know, something we, we recommend to a lot of our people. So, you know, it's, it's great to have you on. Um, you're now CEO of Pulse, uh, but your background wasn't originally in healthcare. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and how you found your way into PEMF? It's always interesting to find the, kind of the, the, those stories.

Scott Baider 09:59 
Yeah, no, I appreciate, appreciate that. And, and again, let me say the work that, that you and Josh are doing is so valuable to helping the industry in general. You know, since you've been at this, uh, and I know it's been a number of years for you as well we've seen many other products come to market, in particular more recently, that talk about PEMF. Many of them say that they do amazing things, but they don't necessarily have the same track record. They don't necessarily have the same experience, nor do they necessarily have the same technology that can deliver the type of beneficial PEMF signal that I know our products do. And the world is, is a big place. Uh, I believe, as I'm sure you do, that everyone can benefit from PEMF, so we need more companies with more background and education capabilities, just the way, uh, you know, you and Josh are doing it, to help people understand-

Andy Smith 10:58 
No, thanks

Scott Baider 10:58 
What it is and how that it, it really can improve their lives. And if we do that, uh, you know, the, the pie only gets bigger for all of us. So thank you. Uh, but from a background perspective, uh, you know, look, I was a business guy. Uh, you know, I, I went to, uh, I went to college and went to work for some big companies like General Electric, and then went into private equity, where I did a number of different things. You know, helped to buy a, a large bank in Europe and restructure some companies. And then, uh, in between, uh, being involved with some other companies, somebody asked me to talk to Pulse PEMF, and this was about 14 years ago. I had no idea what Pulse PEMF was, nor did I know what PEMF was, but they had a business need, and that's how I was introduced to them. And the first time I actually tried the system, it certainly got my attention. I, I was, uh, seemingly quite healthy, but I had a few things that, uh, I was just living with. And using the system for the first time actually made that much of an impact where I knew this was different. And it was something that, uh, from that time forward, I knew I wanted to be involved with. And it has been just so heartwarming to be involved with a company like Pulse, where we produce a product that helps so many people, and our potential to help so many more is something where we believe we're, we're just scratching the very surface of what the potential is. But to be involved in an industry that is evolving, you know, we're, we're early on. So my background was, was quite different. I've had to learn and adapt to the, the healthcare environment, the wellness, uh, you know, environment. But also with technology like ours, the truth is, it's actually quite sophisticated. You know, many people think a magnet does something very simple because they think of a magnet that they're familiar with and, you know, used probably in, uh, i- in science class, uh, or put on a refrigerator. But the type of pulsed magnetic application that we produce is actually quite difficult from an engineering standpoint. So having gotten involved in really understanding why these systems operate the way they do, and to produce a quality that we do, that something that people invest a significant amount of money in. We see this as an investment that they make in the future of their clinic or their practice or putting it in their homes, an investment in themselves. So part of my, uh, my joy and my focus and my mission here is to make sure that we're producing something that people actually get very long-term value out of in terms of what it means to them, even down to the financial aspect of what they do. You know, so many people probably are coming to you and asking if they're putting a new piece of technology in a clinic, why PEMF? How do you use it? And will it last? And that's a big question that certainly people have when they're not familiar with our type of technologies, what it can actually do over time, and how it can perform over time. So I've taken a lot of my previous experience in other industries and brought them here to Pulse to try to really bring Pulse and our PEMF systems to the next level so that we can actually help more people and scale, you know, our organization, and in doing so, hopefully, you know, scale the industry as well.

Andy Smith 14:41 
Hmm. No, great. And you, you mentioned that you first was introduced, like, 13, 14 years ago. What w- what was your first reaction when you used a Pulse device? So, you know, what was, what was the feeling for you? What was the outcome?

Scott Baider 14:53 
Yeah, so, um, uh, you know, when, when they talk about, uh, cars and they say that a certain car gets a certain amount of, uh, gas efficiency or, or miles per gallon, uh, I'll say this as a your results may vary. I'll, I'll just, you know, share with you my first experience. So I was put on the Pulse system, uh, at that time, my first experience, again, with the system in general. So as the system was turned on, my body was starting to move as the intensity was increased. I had not felt something exactly like that. W- it was a unique feeling. But I was, you know, dealing with allergies, and they were sinus-related allergies. I would get, um, a feeling where I would almost feel my sinuses swelling, and often I would get a migraine. I would sneeze a lot. I went to doctors, and they tested me for a lot of different things, and ultimately they couldn't quite tell what I was allergic to. So this first experience with the Pulse system, we have accessories, these pads that we call paddles, two round flat discs. And, uh, first time I was put on the system and I asked, "Can this help allergies?" I was told it, it certainly has beneficial impact. So the paddles were put on the side of my head, and the intensity was turned up, and it really got my attention, as you could imagine. Uh, it was, Andy, a crazy feeling i- in my sinuses. It felt as though if you could imagine your foot falls asleep because you keep it in a certain position too long, and you get those pins and needles, and you know if you just touch the floor, it's gonna be intense. Well, that, that's the feeling I had in my sinuses. And the session only lasted 10 minutes. I left there that first time, and that was the last time I had allergies. Now, I can't explain why, and I wouldn't suggest that it's going to be that way for anybody else. But the system obviously got my attention. And as I went back to speak to people I knew, people in the healthcare world, um, I found that people in the healthcare world, in the medical device world, were familiar with PEMF. Nothing was new. And as we know, uh, PEMF was actually used in hospitals in the US in the early 1900s and into the 1930s, and it was even taught at Yale Medical School through the 1930s. So my first experience certainly got my attention, um, and what I've seen over the years has certainly just proven over and over and over again that PEMF can be beneficial for such a broad range of things in helping people manage their own, their own health and wellness.

Andy Smith 17:56 
So this, this episode is gonna kind of, you know, predominantly be around high-intensity PEMF and, uh, for, you know, for listeners that have only just tuned in and maybe this is their first episode, can you give what an experience of high-intensity PEMF actually feels like and what makes it different than, than, you know, a, a stereotypical lower-intensity system?

Scott Baider 18:16 
Sure. So high intensity, um, I would suggest is, uh, somewhat personal. High intensity is the amount of magnetic energy that a system does put out, but people do respond to it differently. We have, uh, football players that weigh over 300 pounds, that as we turn the intensity on our system up, will say, "That's enough, that's enough," at a different power level or intensity level than maybe someone that weighs 125 pounds.

Andy Smith 18:50 
Right.

Scott Baider 18:51 
So people do respond to the intensity differently. The pulse system allows you to increase in intensity from very low, where you feel nothing, to a point where you start to feel a tingling, to a place where you will get significant involuntary muscle response, primarily with the larger muscle groups. And that is what I think you generally would categorize as what it feels like. You do get that high intensity. Uh, the muscle movement is something that is common, again, with the larger muscles. What we do find is that if you do have some areas where you've got inflammation possibly, the magnetic signal doesn't travel through that tissue or those cells the same way it does a normal healthy cell. And sometimes people will feel more intensity in a certain spot. It, it's very common for people to ask the question if they're sitting in a chair that we produce where the magnetic signal was coming out in both shoulders, and as, as an example, they'll actually point to one and say, "How did it know that this is where I have an injury?" And of course it doesn't, but the magnetic signal will actually feel different going through and past those types of cells.

Andy Smith 20:14 
Yeah, and I think that's great, 'cause, you know, a lot of people are actually using high intensity devices almost as a diagnostic tool. Obviously, we can't call it that, and, you know, we have to be careful what claims we make, but, um, you know, you can almost w- wave the paddle around the body and, and find where the problematic areas are, and it may not necessarily be where the pain is from a day-to-day perspective, but there might be something else that's giving misalignment, so it's a, yeah, it's quite a nice little area that the devices are being used.

Scott Baider 20:44 
A and, and we sometimes refer to that as hotspots. Uh-

Andy Smith 20:47 
Okay

Scott Baider 20:47 
What, what is interesting, Andy, is we sometimes will find that if we have the system set to turn the magnet on and off five times every second, or the frequency five times the pulse rate, and we're doing that type of movement of our paddles on someone's back, as an example, they may not feel something. But if we turn the setting to 2.5 pulses per second, they actually may. So there is some difference, as you asked earlier, if there's a difference even with high, high intensity, if the frequency does matter, and, and it certainly may.

Andy Smith 21:28 
Okay. So that's another, yeah, another area where it's quite important. Do you know, you know, you mentioned about muscle contractions and, and it's easier to, you know, show in a video of, like, people almost convulsing. You know, do you know what's happening inside the body to create that muscle contraction?

Scott Baider 21:44 
Yeah. So the, uh, the magnetic field as the magnet gets turned on, if you could imagine I'm in the, the pulse chair, if this was what I was sitting on, the magnetic field would be coming out from behind me. That magnetic field, every time it gets turned on, leaves the pad and travels through my body. As it does, it's passing by and through my cells, and a little bit of that magnetic energy is interacting with the cell, the cell membrane itself. And through induction, some of that energy is actually transferring to the cell, and that is stimulating a response, in, in particular with fast twitch muscles. So it's actually causing that muscle that's down to the cellular level to actually fire, and it's twitching, and that is what's leading to that contraction.

Andy Smith 22:40 
No, nice. And ATP is something that's mentioned quite a lot when it comes to PEMF therapy. Um, are you able to just give a really quick in- explanation of, first of all, what ATP is, and then why it's such an important part of the conversation when we're talking about PEMF?

Scott Baider 22:57 
So ATP, I, I would say is the, uh, the ultimate fuel that PEMF is certainly, uh, beneficial in, in aiding with. So adenosine triphosphate, ATP, I think is best described as the body's electrical power at the cell level. And if you consider the average person is made up of 30 trillion cells, kind of hard to get our heads around something like that, but 30 trillion cells, every cell has a function, including a bone cell, right? We think of bones as just something that is there, but it's actually metabolically active. A bone cell needs power, and if we consider every cell as a factory, a factory takes input, raw materials. It uses energy to convert those raw materials into an output product. Our cells are just like that. So oxygen, hydration, nutrients must come into a cell, and that cell needs power to convert those raw inputs into the necessary things that allow that cell to function. So if it's a liver cell or a bone cell or a red blood cell- Something happens within that cell to make it produce what a kidney does, or a liver does, or a red blood cell does. It does need power, and that power is ATP. Often people today are hearing more and more about mitochondria. Mitochondria is certainly critical to the production of ATP, but ultimately ATP is what much like your cellphone battery does. It allows that cell to function, and if it can function, it can actually bring those nutrients in and me- What that really does mean is that our cells are protected by a membrane or a cell wall, and those membranes are there to keep the cell intact, all of the things within the cell, the organelle in the cell, but it protects the cell. But that, that barrier, that membrane, actually can restrict nutrients and other things from being brought through the cell membrane. The same way as the cell does its function, it takes that raw material and it uses it, it produces waste product. If the cell does not have the proper electrical charge, it can't push the waste product out of the cell and bring nutrients, fresh nutrients in. ATP is one of those things that allows that to happen.

Andy Smith 25:47 
Mm-hmm. No, that's a great answer, and it's a good way, you know, it's, it's just explaining to people that PEMF therapy isn't healing, it's, it's creating the environment in the body to heal.

Scott Baider 25:56 
Exactly.

Andy Smith 25:57 
It's giving you the ATP. It's doing, you know, it's giving you all the tools you need to do that healing. And I know this is, uh, you know, from experience, this is a difficult question to answer a lot of the time, but how quickly can people typically expect to notice pain relief when it comes to high-intensity PEMF?

Scott Baider 26:11 
That is one difference I think that high intensity does offer. We will find that people will feel a difference in the first session, and that could be as short as 10 minutes, 15 minutes. We, we prefer that people use it longer, but because high intensity does bringing a lot of energy, uh, people will feel something, not only pain relief, but they'll often feel a difference in range of motion potential in a single session. Now, the benefits certainly will be limited as the body absorbs that energy, and the pain or limited range of motion comes from some other injury. We're not suggesting that PEMF solves any of those things immediately. It, it generally doesn't. But the pain relief for pain management purposes and so forth, you can feel in a single session. Generally, what we believe and what we've seen is that, you know, as the PEMF does its work, it's going to raise the electrical potential of the cell membrane. Generally, if the body has the right nutrients, in particular mineral content, that cell will stay electrically charged at that higher level for up to two weeks. But what we've also found is that you can't overcharge a, a cell. So if a cell has the right eleco- electrical potential, that magnetic signal is going to just pass right through, much like your cellphone. If you charge it and you keep it plugged in, it does not damage the battery. PEMF is very similar to that with the cells.

Andy Smith 27:58 
Yeah, and, and great answer there, and a couple of things I just wanted to summarize with, you know, the difference between high and low intensity. You know, I, I reflect that completely the same in terms of both of them are there to get to the same outcome of fixing the problem and reducing the pain. But high intensity seems to just have this immediate analgesic effect on top, the little cherry on top that's, that's quite a nice little, uh, addition that kind of helps to switch off the pain almost immediately for, you know, for a certain amount of period of time. So that's a nice little thing. And also, you mentioned the dose effect, which we spoke of on the podcast a few times before. You know, when you talk about red light therapy, there is a dose effect where you can actually do too much, so you have to find that sweet spot. But with PEMF therapy, you can't overdo it, but sometimes it's just not necessary to do it for such a long time. Um, so two little bits in there which are great little nuggets. I just wanted to kind of summarize those. But a question we hear quite often, and I want to get your spin on this, is when is the best time of day to use high-intensity PEMF? Um, you know, maybe, i- i- we summarized this a little bit in the quick-fire question, but if you could only use a pulse once per day, when would you use it? When would you recommend?

Scott Baider 29:13 
I, I think if, um, the answer that I'll give you is more focused on high intensity, the, the use of the high intensity, I would say, um, early in the day is probably good. You know, you've just woken up and you're going to start your day. You're gonna start putting stress on the body. You know, you're gonna start to stress those same, down to the cellular level, uh, parts of the body. Putting that high intensity in, if you only had one time a day to do it, in the morning would give you some of that foundation to actually, uh, set yourself up properly or best for that day.

Andy Smith 29:53 
Mm-hmm. No, good. And you know, years ago, you mentioned, like, in the 1930s when they're using these in hospitals and things, but a lot of those old products were localized devices, and it would seem to be the, the way that a PEMFs were applied. So you'd have a painful joint or a muscle, and you'd be putting the PEMF device on that area. But now we see 99% of the manufacturers are all going to whole-body sessions as well as the localized. Wh- what do you think's changed, and why are we doing the full-body application now more frequently?

Scott Baider 30:26 
Yes. So that's a, that's a great question. I think both are really critical. Uh, when we give people guidance in using the Pulse system, we tell them that the preference is to do the full body even before you focus on a problem area. So if someone had a knee issue that they wanted to use a localized focused PEMF session for, and they were going to use it for half an hour, we would actually recommend that they do, in that half-hour session, 20 minutes of it for the full body, and only 10 minutes on the problem area of the knee. And the reason is, the entire body is part of a healing process. You know, you could put a system, you could put the, the, our paddles just on the knee, and it will, it will help, but you're actually getting so many benefits throughout the entire body if you're using PEMF, if you're sitting on our chair or laying on our Z-Grav Lounger, for example, the knee is getting that benefit the s- same time the rest of the body is. Um, you know, you touched on the brain. We have some doctors that use our system that believe through their own experience using our system for years, that they can actually achieve far better outcomes if they work with somebody charging their brain prior to focu- focusing on a part of the body like a knee or an ankle, because the brain is actually the command center that's going to lead all of the healing that happens, that the doctor does, all the other things that that doctor may do to bring that outcome. PEMF, y- you know, is part of that, but the brain is the computer. It is the command center, and if that is undercharged, and the brain is an electrical, you know, organ itself, then the results of what the doctor's trying to achieve on a particular body part will be less productive. So we do believe that charging the entire body is critical, uh, more beneficial than just focusing on one area. But I do think that the industry has certainly been evolving, and the industry is recognizing that full body actually gives those benefits. As we know, a finger, a brain, uh, a knee, the entire body benefits from PEMF, so the more that you can actually use PEMF, more regular, more consistent, you'll see those benefits across the entire body.

Andy Smith 33:06 
Mm-hmm. And you mentioned the brain, you mentioned the head. A common concern we get, and a common question we get in the market quite frequently is about using specifically high intensity on the head. It's, you know, it's just been out there, and it, some, some manufacturers have put it on their manuals not to use it on the head, just more of a caution. Um, you know, do you think that that concern is justified? You know, your, your first experience was using PEMF 14 years ago on your head, so-

Scott Baider 33:34 
Yes

Andy Smith 33:35 
Where, where are you in, in this, uh, in this debate?

Scott Baider 33:38 
We, we always, as, uh, as I've heard you say as well, tell people, you know, always get consults from your medical providers before you do anything that, uh, may be questioned or questionable. But we're familiar obviously with TMS, which is an FDA-approved application which use, uses pulse magnetics, which is FDA-approved to treat depression and OCD, and that is applied directly to the head. They are high-intensity systems, and they're very targeted. Uh, they're used for a specific purpose, obviously, with specific durations, but, uh, I don't have concern. You know, we see people using the Pulse system and have for 20 years now on full body which means it's going through the head into the brain, uh, where we believe that it can lead to any concerns or issues. But we're putting it through the entire head. We're not targeting a particular quadrant or part of the brain the way a TMS system is designed to do. But we have seen people use it to manage a lot of different things in concert with other things that they're doing if they have any medical conditions. But we've had our systems operating, uh, again, in different environments where the head has been part of the treatment area, if you will, and we haven't seen any people come back to us expressing any concerns. In fact, uh, you know, we've seen people have beneficial, uh, improvement to things like headaches and other probably, you know, other areas. But we do believe more work will be done now because we've already heard people starting to work on it, uh, where the head will be the subject of more studies and ultimately more findings.

Andy Smith 35:32 
Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah, great. And what about metal implants, titanium plates? Is that something people should worry about as well?

Scott Baider 35:39 
No. So the, uh, any implanted hardware that has no battery is, is not something that people would have to avoid high-intensity PEMF. Stents, ports, uh, hardware, uh, you can use PEMF associated with, with all of those different things. Uh, the only thing that, uh, you know, we certainly recommend is that anything with a battery, uh, pacemaker, uh, ear, uh, hearing aid related with an implanted battery, uh, since PEMF has been shown to increase the, uh, circulation of, of blood flow, if you have any active hemorrhaging, PEMF is not something that you should be using. Uh, pregnancy is an area that, uh, generally everybody- Says that, you know, it's not been tested on, we wouldn't recommend, you know, being used during pregnancy. And one of the other areas is if you're a recent organ transplant recipient, and part of that reason is that, uh, when you are receiving an organ, uh, that is foreign to your body, uh, the doctors will put that person on immune-suppressing drugs. PEMF has certainly been shown to improve the immune system, so it would actually counteract some of those drugs that are designed to actually suppress the immune system. But, but generally, uh, people with hardware put in the body, stents, ports, and other things, they can certainly use PEMF as well.

Andy Smith 37:14 
Yeah, and it's a good men- it's a good one that you mention there, 'cause a friend of mine's getting a, a lung transplant soon, and they, and they said to me, "You know, straight after the, the operation, I'll be back on my PEMF," and I'm actually like, "No, you know, unfortunately, you need to... Y- you know, it's not just PEMF as well. Anything that you might be doing now that's gonna strengthen your immune system, you actually want to reel back on." So it's, it's, it's a shame, because, you know, you're actually trying to make your body more effective, but for, you know, for the right reasons to, so that it doesn't reject an organ. Um, after the episode that we had with Joe Lahote, uh, somebody asked about ports too, so I just wanted to touch on that. Um, i- if you've got implanted ports, can you use high-intensity PEMF?

Scott Baider 37:54 
You could, and again, we would always recommend that anyone that is going to use PEMF that has something like a port or anything, speak to your doctor. Uh, you know everybody has their own health dynamics going on, and, and their doctors are more familiar with what they have to be aware of. But, but in general, yes, you can still use high-intensity PEMF.

Andy Smith 38:17 
Yeah. Good stuff. Um, we mentioned it slightly earlier in the f- in the quick fire about, um, frequency.

Scott Baider 38:23 
Yes.

Andy Smith 38:25 
So how much does frequency really matter when it comes to high-intensity PEMF systems?

Scott Baider 38:29 
It's an area that we still believe we're learning about. You know, our systems, again, operate within a very narrow range, one to 10, uh, cycles or hertz per second. Uh, we generally find that people start using something they like, something they feel is effective for them. And it's one of the things that I find, um, gratifying but also frustrating, because we'll make available extensive training when someone acquires our system. The number of people that complete that training is far less than it should be. And the reason is, when we contact these people, they say, "No, no, I opened it and I started using it, and I felt great." And they think they've dis- they've, they've figured out everything they need to really understand. So we do find that people will get most of the benefits that they're looking for almost regardless of the settings that they use with frequency. However, we do believe, as I mentioned earlier, that the benefits could be better if you're working within general guidelines. So for example, with the one to 10 range that we offer, we generally find that if someone is dealing with inflammation, uh, using the pulse rate from one to three and a half times per second is generally better to m- help bring that energy in, but not overstimulate the cells that are already overstimulated. From four to seven is basically better for performance. We're gonna get a lot of power in, and we're gonna create, you know, that activity that we're looking for. And then from 7.8 pulses per second to 10, it's actually better to calm the system, to, to really help even with the nervous system as well. We have... I, I say that, but we have some people that say, "Yeah, I, I hurt my knee and I used 10 pulses per second and it did great," and conversely. But again, some of that becomes very personal. What does something feel like? And I've heard on other podcasts where, where you and, and Josh have really spoken about the value of fitting PEMF into your lifestyle. We believe that, much like you do, if people can make this part of their journey, not just use it for a particular purpose. They may have found out about PEMF because they're looking to get pain relief because they hurt themselves. That's great. We'd really like them to use it throughout the rest of their lives so that they can actually protect themselves against being injured in the future, and perform better, and m- you know, just manage pain and other issues that they may have where PEMF can be so beneficial.

Andy Smith 41:27 
Yeah, and I think that's a great point. You know, we, we always encourage people not to get too lost in PEMF therapy. You know, it's, it's been overcomplicated over the years with all the different frequencies, intensities, and, you know, at the end of the day, being consistent and using it, you know, and if it feels good, you know, you- you're onto a winner. So it's just

Scott Baider 41:44 
Absolutely

Andy Smith 41:45 
Trying not to get too lost in it. We had a, we had the legend Dr. Bob Dennis, you know, from the original NASA studies on the podcast a couple of episodes ago, and even he said he thinks using a combination of low and high intensity is, is the best approach for most people. Um, have you got any views on using low and high intensity together as part of a treatment plan?

Scott Baider 42:05 
Yes. I think, um, again, both, both have their place. I think people that, um, are, uh, if they have the luxury of time, if they have a system that they can actually put in their homes, and they can use it for longer durations, the low intensity, obviously a lot less movement. You can use it as you're watching television or doing other things recreationally. Um- It has great purpose there. And, you know, generally, the lower intensity systems tend to be a little bit more affordable than, for example, our systems that are designed to be clinical grade, professional grade. Um, I, I'd certainly like to make our systems far cheaper, so many people, more people can, uh, acquire them, but the cost of producing these systems is, is very high to begin with. But they do both have a place. You know, with, with the pulse system, uh, as well as other systems, I believe there's also a potential to use these systems the way most do passively. You're sitting on a chair, those magnetic signals are pulsing, going through your body, but we're seeing a number of people, not only now, but have for quite a while, use our systems actively. And it's something that, you know, I would encourage people as they're using PEMF, if they can, and sometimes it takes some active thought, to breathe deeper while you're using PEMF. Nitric oxide is something that is very beneficial to the body, and certain breathing patterns can actually help with nitric oxide, uh, as you're actually using PEMF. But even tensing your muscles as you're on the system, or stretching while you're gett- getting PEMF, I believe can amplify the benefit. So you can use it passively, you can use it actively, but if you do have a shorter duration of time that you can use a system, to, you know, Bob's point as well, the high intensity can actually bring some of those benefits faster within those shorter windows of session time.

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Andy Smith 45:31 
Yeah, no, that's great. And you know, with stacking PEMF with other things, you know, you've spoken about it, I've spoken about it multiple times. You know, you're not just getting the benefits of PEMF therapy, but you're treating the cells, you're getting them ready. If you're doing breathwork at the same time, you're doing red light at the same time, you know, make the most of that 10, 20 minutes, hour, whatever it is you're, you know, you're sitting on a PEMF device, you can be stacking it with other therapies. So yeah, great-

Scott Baider 45:55 
No doubt

Andy Smith 45:55 
Great point to, to think about. Where do you think people are still misunderstanding high-intensity PEMF? Because, you know, there's still some myths and misconceptions going around.

Scott Baider 46:06 
I think, I think some people are, um, just not familiar with it. You know, PEMF is something that even within the complementary and alternative, uh, healthcare world, in the CAM space, there are a lot of doctors who a- are unfamiliar with PEMF, and they have to be educated on it. Anything that moves the body is something that will get more of your attention, and you'll want to understand probably more about it. So I think people really, um, the misconception and misunderstanding is part of the education process. Understanding that, uh, high-intensity PEMF has been around over 100 years. You know, some of the early systems were high intensity. Uh, just the way they designed them, it put out uh, a, a good amount of intensity, and it was, to your point, localized. But I think people just understanding how long the systems have been used around the world, and the safety environment. You know, there's so many studies that can be found, for example, on the NIH website, PubMed, about PEMF. Countless studies, thousands of them, that show efficacy for a wide variety of different things. Most of those studies, though, end in saying that they show promise, PEMF shows promise, but more, more studies need to be done. So I think that's where the future of so much of this will be helpful for your group, for our group, as those additional studies are done and people can recognize educationally and become aware of what PEMF can actually do to help them address common issues that they deal with today, give them ongoing better performance, and really just help them live be- you know, lead better lifestyles. Again, PEMF, um, how you use it becomes somewhat personal, you know, that, that feeling that you get. But if people can use it, incorporate it into their lives, whether it's in their home or going to a clinic with some regularity, they'll see those benefits just multiply.

Andy Smith 48:19 
Mm-hmm. No, that's good. PEMF is now used across, you know... W- w- we've spoken about the medical applications, we've spoken about the kinda home applications, but maybe not so much in the professional athlete sides. You know, it's being used in NFL, NLB, uh, you know, other professional sports organizations. But- Why do you think people are leaning in the elite sports now to PMF so much more recently than, than they ever have?

Scott Baider 48:46 
I think it's being driven in part by the players. So with, with our systems, we have a presence in many professional training facilities with sports teams. Uh, but we also have many of our systems in the homes of players. Because they can actually easily use the system. They can sit down at night after, you know, they've played or trained or in the off-season, and they can just sit there and, and get the benefits of it. But it's a, it's a great supplement to augment all the, the training and therapeutic, uh, things that they're getting within the, the sports team and the training facility itself. But I do think that, uh, the more that people are using the system within the sports world, the more they're communicating with one another. You know, we just had a, a, a basketball team put our systems in because a baseball team in the same city, the trainer spoke and they told them, "If you don't have the system, you need it." And that was all they really needed to really buy the system. What, what we find, Andy, is that with the high-intensity system, uh, there can be a lot of conversation that we get into around what the system does and why it does it and what it can help with, but trying it makes a big difference. So that demonstration often is what makes people in their brains click and say, "Ah, I feel it." So the speed with which people can actually feel some improvement with the high-intensity system is why some of these sports teams and players find it so beneficial. They can actually use it. It fits in well with the way they actually use therapy, uh, within their system. Some of the things that you mentioned are other modalities and technologies that they use already, so it's a great complement to, to many of those things.

Andy Smith 50:51 
Yeah, and it was, uh, I like what you said at the beginning where it's very player driven because, um, you know, we sold a device to a, a player called Sergio Agüero, who, you know, was a huge Premier League player at the time, and he, he moved from a, I believe it was a Spanish club, over to, uh, Man City in the UK, and it was in his transfer agreement. His transfer agreement was, "You have to find and source one of these PMF devices for me to come over." Um, and, and that's what they did. So it's, it's quite interesting actually. It's not always the clubs that are driving these, but actually the players that are like, "You know, since I've introduced this product, it's, it's upped my game, so it now, it has to follow me around. We a- and that's a great, that's a great point. We have, uh, it's a little bit of a mystery in some ways, you know, how, uh, technologies like ours make it into places, and once it does, our hope and objective is to make sure that they're using it as much as possible, right? We know what it will do, and what we've seen are those teams that actually do that. When those players get traded, they go somewhere else. If they don't have it, it's one of the first things that they ask about. And we've had some, we've had some professional players, even very recently, get traded. They get to a new team, they don't have the technology, and they don't wanna wait for the team to actually adopt it, so the player just buys it for themselves and puts it in their in their homes. We also interestingly have some team owners that own our equipment, but they don't have it in their train- their team training facilities. So we know that there's, there's some really interesting dynamics, and it differs from team to team about how the education process works for the different doctors and therapists involved for how they make decisions for what to bring in. But what we have found is that when players will ask and sometimes demand, it makes the biggest and fastest impact.

Andy Smith 52:56 
Yeah, yeah. And have you personally noticed the differences between the sports and how they use or adapt PMF? Like for example, does the NFL team use it differently to an MLB team maybe?

Scott Baider 53:08 
I think it's, uh, more in the application. You know, there's certain, uh, injuries that are more prevalent in MLB than within the NFL. Um, outside of that, we generally think that it's more specific to the therapists that are using it and the doctors that are using it. They, they also tend to find the things that they think work well, and they'll wanna reuse those, you know, more consistently. Our, our objective is to really help guide them. Even if there's a particular injury that the PMF system will help in conjunction with all the other things that they're doing, please do the whole body too. That's gonna bring faster results even for a knee or an ankle. Get that whole body in there so that they have a little bit more time to get that energy everywhere.

Andy Smith 53:59 
Mm-hmm. And, and doing some research on this episode before, um, I, I heard you mention that LeBron James bought his own Pulse system. Um, are there other athletes, teams, or, or, or maybe even just demographic of people that are buying into high-intensity PMF that may surprise people?

Scott Baider 54:16 
So our systems really do go across all the different professional sports, uh, football, baseball, soccer, uh, basketball, tennis, even golf. And I think golf is one of those that, that people might be surprised. Uh, bull riders are using our system. It, it really does cut across. There's a number of entertainers that use our system. And they're using it for recovery and, uh, in some cases just to address fatigue that they have. So it really does cut across a very wide, uh, swath of different types of, uh, people in the sports world, but, you know, even going into the entertainment industry as well.

Andy Smith 55:04 
Yeah. No, good. And we kinda talked about stacking and using it in clinics, combining PEMF therapy with other therapies like hyperbaric, red light, cold exposure, IV, you know, you name it. But w- why do you think PEMF works so well alongside these other modalities?

Scott Baider 55:23 
I think it comes back to ATP. A, uh, a cell can benefit from so many different things, but, uh, the magnetic fields that our systems put out do travel through the body. Even the lower intensity systems do travel through the body because they're effortlessly common and natural to our body, right? We know, and for those listeners that are unfamiliar, the Earth puts out a magnetic field, and that magnetic field is really critical to our body's ability to function. A PEMF basically mimics that with different frequencies and different intensities, but it's so natural and so beneficial, but it does, again, something different. You know, red light is amazing, but it doesn't go all the way through the body. If it did, if it was behind you, that red light would shine through your front. It doesn't. That mechanical energy gets absorbed, so it will only go so deep. Um, uh, this is a, a little speaker that we buy on Amazon. You know, we think spent $2 for it, and it comes connected to some wires. We actually cut the wires, and this is a speaker with no power. When people are on our system, and most PEMF systems would do this, if the magnetic field was coming out from behind me, if I would put that speaker in front of me on my sternum, the magnetic fields traveling through my body would actually make that speaker chirp. So something you can't see, those magnetic fields, you can hear as they're passing through the speaker. There are very few other things that actually do that, that actually can influence all the cells in the body. Cold and everything else that, that you mentioned all have their place. They're different than what PEMF is, but PEMF can help bring energy deep into the body, and that is very valuable. So if those cells now have more energy, ATP, then all of these other modalities can actually do s- even better. Um, not everything, again, can actually influence the cells that PEMF can reach.

Andy Smith 57:44 
Mm-hmm. No, it's, it's a great que- it, you know, great point because we, we've got those little, we call them clickers, you know, and they're, they're

Scott Baider 57:51 
Yeah

Andy Smith 57:51 
good to pick up magnetic field to show people it passing through the body, and we found some that are particularly sensitive so we can use them on low-intensity systems and show how the PEMF goes through the body. But funny enough, you mentioned earlier about going to the exhibition in Austin and, you know, you and I were on two stands, you know, far enough away, but close enough maybe just to throw, uh, you know, a stone to each other. But the funny thing is we're using these clickers, and we're actually picking up pulses, you know, um, magnetic field, and same vice versa. You'll probably be picking up some of ours. But it just, it just shows you the, the, you know, the, the range of these devices, especially in the high-intensity range. You know, we wasn't expecting to f- to see such a big magnetic field coming from them. Um, but it, you know, it shows you that it's going through body. It's going through everything that's in that area, and that's why, you know, PEMFs originally very, very early on were used for telecommunication purposes and, you know, and still are in the, in the higher frequencies.

Scott Baider 58:47 
Right.

Andy Smith 58:47 
Um, but when we, when we stack these two, you know, when we stack PEMF therapy with other modalities, um, I know it's a, it depends on the modality, but if you had to say one, is, is there a particular place generally where you would put PEMF? So would it be before, during, or, or after those modalities? When, when PEMF is most, you know, effective and, and recommended to do?

Scott Baider 59:11 
Yeah, I, I, I would put PEMF first. I think it's still valuable if you put it, uh, you know, second, third, but if you put it first, the benefits that you can get are so fast. So putting the energy where your body actually needs it first then allows these other modalities, these other technologies to start working with cells that are already better conditioned, better primed to, you know, optimize whatever those technologies do. So I would, I would recommend it to be first. If it's done second, third, you'll still get benefit, but first I consider PEMF to be so foundational to what our cells need to perform and to do their function, that first always seems to be what makes the most sense.

Andy Smith 01:00:05 
Yeah. And when, and when, you know, 100% agree with that. I think it's, you know, it's, it's almost pr- preparing, well, it is preparing the cell for, for the next modality and, and, you know, if you're getting people that are using hyperbaric and they're just not getting the results that everyone else is getting, try putting PEMF therapy before getting the cells ready to adapt and to take on that extra oxygen, and then see what happens. And a lot of the time it's, like, mind-blown moment, you know. Suddenly they're getting results off the HBOT. Um, you know, talking about clinics, the, y- you mentioned about passive therapy, PEMF being a passive therapy. So just quickly explain what that means to someone and, and how important is that for busy clinics?

Scott Baider 01:00:47 
Sure. A passive therapy meaning all you need to do is just sit somewhere, lay somewhere. You know, if you're laying on your equipment, our equipment, and that magnetic field is actually just traveling through your body, you don't need to do anything. You're just, you know, able to sit, relax, watch TV, do, do whatever you, you choose to do. There's nothing that you need to be expert about, trained about. And because the systems are sa- so safe, um, in many cases, people that will use our system, they know how to put themselves on it. So it doesn't require someone that works at the clinic to put them on. You don't need to take clothing off. You don't need gels. You just sit down, or you just put one of the pads or applicators on the part of the body where you need it, and then you could start using the machine. So it is very easy to use within a clinic or a home environment. It's something that, uh, people, and this is maybe where high intensity, uh, does have a, a different, uh, feeling. If someone were turning the system up with a high-intensity system and it got to be too much, you just stop turning it up. You turn it down. So it doesn't force you into a range or feeling that you don't like. So it's a very intuitive type of application for those people that haven't tried it yet.

Andy Smith 01:02:18 
Mm-hmm. And high intensity is, is traditionally known as a professional system, so we, you know, a lot of people will start looking at PEMF, and they, they see high-intensity PEMF put into the professional grade, clinic grade, you know, more so than the lower-intensity systems. But we're actually seeing a huge rise in people buying these systems for their homes now. Um, what, why do you think that's happening?

Scott Baider 01:02:44 
I think the biohacking community is doing a lot to educate people, including doctors and others, that these types of technologies are out there. I think when people have the opportunity to try systems like yours and ours, they feel something, and they know that it's something that can be beneficial to them. And for some people that are dealing with chronic pain, um, their options aren't always the best if you're considering surgeries or drugs that, uh, they have to potentially take for the rest of their lives. So when they can find an option that is natural and non-invasive, and it can lead to, uh, an improvement that allows them to function, the investment, and I'll come back to that word, is really something that people are very often willing to make. You know, uh, we used to say, you know, buying a, a system like the Pulse PEMF system, uh, you know, it's kind of like buying a car. Cars have gotten so expensive that we have to find something else to compare it to. Uh, but it is still expensive, but people, I believe, uh, do care about continuing a lifestyle. You know, I think, uh, we sometimes use the, the term lifespan. Um, how can people actually remain productive, not just live longer, but live longer being able to play tennis, play pickleball, play golf, pick up children and grandchildren, is so important to them, and that's why, you know, I mentioned the fingers being so important. When people start to lose the ability to do the things that they value, they start really recognizing the need to find a solution, and in some cases, that's investing in the types of things that can actually bring them back to a place to do those things that they care about.

Andy Smith 01:04:45 
Mm-hmm. And just approaching them two differently, like, i- do you think there's a difference between how clinics and home users approach treatment at all?

Scott Baider 01:04:54 
I, I think, uh, there is, and I think it ties to the luxury of time. You know, the, the home user has the ability to pick the settings that they like that, uh, again, tie to how much time they have available, where a clinic is limited. You know, a treatment session is a certain duration, and if somebody wants it, they've got to book a second. So I do believe clinics will use a system like Pulses to really fit into the time allotments that they provide for the, for the treatment for that, uh, for that client or the patient in a doctor's office. So we certainly see some doctors that will use the Pulse system for as little as 20 minutes. We sometimes want to push them to try to use it a little bit longer. But because of the additional power, they can actually see benefits in those shorter windows.

Andy Smith 01:05:54 
No, good. And, you know, we're running out of time for the day, but m- my last question I wanna, uh, kind of ask you, Pulse has been in the, i- in the market for a long time, you know. It's, it's, it's one of the more, you know, founded, uh, devices that's been out there. Um, and I read a statement that it's, you know, delivering over a million sessions a year now, so, you know, there's lots of devices, lots of treatments going on. Is, is there one thing you've learnt from that amount of real-world ex- s- uh, experience that's actually surprised you in all of this?

Scott Baider 01:06:25 
I would say that what surprises me is how many times people are unfamiliar with something that, you know, is out there. You know, you can find it in almost every city around the US and, uh, so many emerging places around the world, your system as well, uh, how much of a secret it is. Uh, you know, our, our systems we believe will continue expanding a- around the world, and our goal is to really get as much usage with these systems as possible. And I do believe that we'll find that through more of these studies and research, that the capability of these systems to help with so many different things, so many different conditions and, and challenges that people have as part of other things that they're doing, will just expand, you know, more and more. You know, we're w- even though, you know, together, uh, we, we both, as you said earlier, you know, play within this wellness community with what our systems do, our systems today are used by medical doctors, uh, orthopedic surgeons, the sports teams, as you mentioned, physical therapists, chiropractors, home users. I think the more that people are using it and the more we can educate them, the more we'll actually just get more people to try PEMF. And much like, um, you know, we've seen over and over again, when people try it and they get that smile on their face and that, "Oh, I, I didn't think it was gonna feel like that," but in a good way, we've gotten their attention, and I think that is one thing that, um, as many times as I've seen people use our system, that first time person that actually gets the smile because they, their body almost speaks to them that they feel something that is different, something that is working, where so many other things that they may try and sprays and different things that people tell them will be beneficial, maybe they are, but they don't feel it that quickly. PEMF stands out as being different that way, and I think, uh, as many times as I see people get that first experience, it doesn't get old. And you know, when, when we've had people that have told us that they, you know, can't walk without, you know, pain in a knee and they use the system once, and then they want to show us that they can run, and we suggest that, "We wouldn't suggest you run yet," right? That, that quick experience, I think, is something that is enough to get their attention, which is so critical to get them to start changing a behavior. Make this part of your lifestyle. Make this part of what you do, not only when you're trying to supplement what you're doing to overcome an injury, but to actually stay healthy, stay well, and live a better life.

Andy Smith 01:09:30 
Yeah, no, it's a great answer. And, um, you know, something you said there was that people just have to try it. And, you know, when we were setting up the business many, many years ago, we were advised at the time for something like PEMF therapy that's not so widely known to introduce a return policy, you know? And at the time, they said to me, "A 50% return rate on something like this is, is a really good return rate, um, and something you should strive to achieve." And, you know, when I look at our return rate now, it's almost negligible, and we, and we, we hear this from many other PEMF manufacturers. So, you know, it's, it's, it's one of them things that we just really encourage people to at least try it. Go find one in the area. Try it. If you want one for your home, you know, you've got return periods, all these sorts of things. So yeah, great point there. Um, where can people find you, Scott? If, if, if people wanna find you, or if they wanna find out more about Pulse or contact Pulse, you know, where's the first place to start?

Scott Baider 01:10:21 
Yeah. So our, our website, which is www.pulse, P-U-L-S-E-P-E-M-F, all one word, .com, and you can find our contact information on there. Um, you can put any message in there, including if you'd like to speak to me. Part of the reason I'm doing what I am is I'm such a zealot for PEMF. I've seen over and over and over again these amazing experiences that people have that are life-changing, and this is, for me, one of the most unique opportunities: to be involved in a successful company that is growing, but also to help so many people. You know, sometimes people, you know, you and I are seeing people in positions where they're running a company, but, you know, they're doing something that really doesn't change lives, right? They're, they're doing something that has some value, but they're not really feeling as good about it. This is one of these unique experiences and opportunities to really do both at the same time. So I love what I do, but I recognize it all comes with education. If we can get people understanding what it is, answer their questions, get them that opportunity to try the system, then, you know, nothing sells itself, but that really makes such a big difference in helping to close the gap with the understanding.

Andy Smith 01:11:44 
Yeah. Thank you so much. And you know, for our listeners, thanks again for listening to another episode of the PEMF Podcast. If you've enjoyed it, please do subscribe. Leave us a five-star review. You're on your favorite streaming platform. It really does help us to bring more amazing guests like Scott to share their knowledge with everybody. So thanks again s- for your time today, Scott.

Scott Baider 01:12:02 
Andy, thank you so much. You're doing a great job.

Andy Smith 01:12:04 
Thanks