Andy Smith 00:00
A quick disclaimer before we begin. The PEMF podcast does not contain any medical advice, and the content provided is for informational purposes only. If you have any health concerns, please visit a healthcare professional.
Welcome back to the PEMF podcast. Today we're joined by Tyler LeBaron, founder and executive director of the Molecular Hydrogen Institute and one of the leading voices in the world of molecular hydrogen research and education. Tyler, welcome to the podcast.
Tyler W. LeBaron, MSc., PhD. 00:30
My pleasure. Thank you.
Andy Smith 00:32
So today we're gonna look at the science, some of the myths, and clear up some of the common misunderstandings around molecular hydrogen and much more. But before we start that, we normally do quick-fire questions. So I'll ask you some questions, just quite a short, sharp answer, and then we'll take a deeper dive later on in the episode, if that's okay.
Tyler W. LeBaron, MSc., PhD. 00:48
Great.
Andy Smith 00:48
So is hydrogen water basically just alkaline water?
Tyler W. LeBaron, MSc., PhD. 00:52
No. They cannot be any different. They're completely separate.
Andy Smith 00:56
Is hydrogen just an a- antioxidant?
Tyler W. LeBaron, MSc., PhD. 00:58
Absolutely not. In fact, it c- if anything, it could be considered an oxidant.
Andy Smith 01:04
If you were gonna choose one, would it be hydrogen inhalation, bathing, or in water?
Tyler W. LeBaron, MSc., PhD. 01:10
False dichotomy.
Andy Smith 01:12
Is more hydrogen always better?
Tyler W. LeBaron, MSc., PhD. 01:15
Not necessarily. And in some cases, depending on the method, it could be worse.
Andy Smith 01:19
Is hydrogen water actually H3O?
Tyler W. LeBaron, MSc., PhD. 01:22
Absolutely not.
Andy Smith 01:23
What's the biggest myth in the hydrogen industry?
Tyler W. LeBaron, MSc., PhD. 01:26
People claim that it's alkaline water or H3O or H3O2 or some sort of structure. It is simply hydrogen gas dissolved in the water.
Andy Smith 01:35
Okay, and one hydrogen trend that you wish would disappear.
Tyler W. LeBaron, MSc., PhD. 01:38
The conflation of alkaline water.
Andy Smith 01:40
And last one, does hydrogen need to be felt to be working?
Tyler W. LeBaron, MSc., PhD. 01:43
No. In fact, we should avoid things we can immediately feel.
Andy Smith 01:47
Okay, so that's the end of the quick-fire questions. We'll take a bit of a deeper dive now. So, um, let's start first of all by just talking about hydrogen as the layman's term as possible and why do we need hydrogen?
Tyler W. LeBaron, MSc., PhD. 02:03
Yeah, it's important to understand the terms we're talking about. When we think about hydrogen, we can actually put hydrogen as five different species or forms of how hydrogen is found. First, we look at the periodic table of element, of elements. Hydrogen is number one. That is just one proton and one electron. That's atomic hydrogen. And this atomic hydrogen with just a single electron is actually a free radical, so it's not gonna stay around very long. It's gonna react with something else, and typically that atomic hydrogen is gonna react with another element such as oxygen. It reacts to oxygen, it could form compounds like water, H2O, two hydrogens, one oxygen. Or it can react with carbon to form carbohydrates, right? Or like glucose, C6H12, so 12 hydrogens, O6. Um, or it can react with nitrogen to form amino acids or ammonia, right? Or it could simply react with another hydrogen atom. So two hydrogen atoms react with each other and form a molecule of hydrogen. We call that molecular hydrogen. So di meaning two, dihydrogen or diatomic hydrogen, hydrogen gas. That's the hydrogen gas that is therapeutic that we're talking about. Um, that's an alternative energy source and so on. You could also take that atomic hydrogen though and you could remove the electron, then you're left with just a bare proton. That is H+ or hydrogen ion, and that is responsible for the H in pH. So if you have a lot of those, you have an acidic pH. And then you could also take that atomic hydrogen and add an additional electron. That's H- or hydride, and this is a very powerful reducing agent. Like think of s- um, sodium borohydride or lithium borohydride. The, these are strong reductive, uh, compounds that are used in organic chemistry for synthesis reactions. Has nothing to do with what we're talking about with, again, molecular hydrogen.
Andy Smith 03:46
Mm-hmm. Okay. So you're really passionate about hydrogen. Um, we can tell, you know? We can... Y- you go quite deep into the science and everything like that. So... And we had Paul, um, from Echo on, on, uh, the podcast as w- as well kind of talking about hydrogen, the benefits and that sort of thing. But one of the biggest myths I think that we see online is people saying, "Well, there's hydrogen in water."
Tyler W. LeBaron, MSc., PhD. 04:08
Yeah.
Andy Smith 04:08
So why do I need to start inhaling it or, or increasing those levels and that sort of thing, you know? It... I think it's the biggest argument we see online. So w- what do you say about what's your kinda counter-argument to, to that?
Tyler W. LeBaron, MSc., PhD. 04:21
It's just a straw man fallacy. I mean, it's a legitimate question, but it, it's fundamentally not what we're talking about with hydrogen water. Um, it would be like, why do we need to breathe oxygen when there's already oxygen in water? Why can't we just drink water? In fact, why can't I just be in the water like a fish or something? And, and actually fish, people don't actually know this, but fish don't use the oxygen in water either. There's dissolved oxygen gas in the water, and then they use the oxygen gas that's dissolved in the water. And y- that's why they have gills. Um, so when we talk about molecular hydrogen, again, the therapeutic molecule is molecular hydrogen, hydrogen gas. And that's just dissolved in the water. It doesn't bond to anything, it doesn't change the water structure, and it's just gonna, just gonna come back out after you infuse it in. And that also goes against another myth is, uh, often in chemistry we talk about hydrogen gas being basically insoluble in water just because it's, it's a non-polar molecule. It's not very soluble. But technically everything is soluble. It's just to what degree, right? Have like a... Is it a picomolar or is it a whole bunch, right? And hydrogen gas is not very soluble. Um, you... A- and if you have a liter of water, then it, it's, it's saturation level, if you have like 100% hydrogen gas and at one atmosphere of pressure, it'll dissolve into the water at 1.6 milligrams per liter. So it's like 1.6 milligrams doesn't seem like very much, and so it's like, yeah, it's not really soluble, you know, compared to, um, you know, uh, the amount of milligrams we get of, say, other, other molecules. Like say vitamin C, you know, we take 100 milligrams of vitamin C and, like compared to 1.6 milligrams, it's nothing. But that's actually not true either Because hydrogen gas is the smallest molecule in the universe, so it only weighs two grams per mole, versus vitamin C weighs about 180 grams per mole, or 176 grams per mole. I think glucose 180. That's C6. We'd have to do the math. But-
Andy Smith 06:16
It's a small one.
Tyler W. LeBaron, MSc., PhD. 06:17
Yeah.
Andy Smith 06:17
Small molecule.
Tyler W. LeBaron, MSc., PhD. 06:18
But, but, so, vi- vi- I think vitamin C, 176 grams per mole. 176, so um, hydrogen's only two grams per mole. So if we actually look at the moles of hydrogen gas in the water, like the actual m- a number of molecules in water, there's more molecules in a liter of water when it's saturated of hydrogen gas than there are molecules of vitamin C in 100 milligram dose. So that's, that's another important understanding people need to realize, that actually 1.6 milligrams is a lot because it's, it's 0.8 millimoles. Wh- which is, you know, when you talk about the blood level, you can reach, you know, micromolar concentrations from drinking hydrogen water or from inhalation of hydrogen gas, and that's enough to induce biological benefits.
Andy Smith 07:07
And you... That goes onto my next point perfectly. What happens in the body when you drink hydrogen? You know, when you drink hy- hydrogen infused water, what is that hydrogen doing? Where's it going, and what's it affecting?
Tyler W. LeBaron, MSc., PhD. 07:19
Yeah, and so we, we distinguish between the methods first, right? Because inhalation of hydrogen gas and then there's drinking of hydrogen water. So if we drink hydrogen water, again, it's just the gas is dissolved into the water. The water does not change, it's just a carrier of the hydrogen gas. And when you ingest that, then, then, it, it, the water just goes into your stomach, goes into your intestines, and the hydrogen gas goes along with it. But the hydrogen gas very quickly diffuses through the intestinal cells and into the portal vein, into the venous circulation, and that's where it gets pumped to the heart, and the heart pumps the blood to the lungs, and you exhale most of the hydrogen gas out. But this is important part is after drinking hydrogen water, you can see increases in breath hydrogen gas within just a minute or two, and it reaches a peak level in, you know, 5, 15, 20 minutes depending on the dose that was administered. This also indicates just how fast hydrogen gas diffuses in and throughout the body, right? I mean, like probably within 30 seconds you start seeing increases in hydrogen gas, like in the breath, you know? And so potentially in the brain as well. You can see it very quickly. And then, uh, it diffuses very quickly, and yet we... A lot of the hydrogen gas is exhaled, so if you were to measure the arterial blood, there's very s- a very small amount of hydrogen gas that actually remains in the blood. So that means that, like in the brain, the concentration of hydrogen gas probably doesn't get very high, or in other distal organs. But yet there's still benefits to those areas, but not directly from hydrogen gas, but probably from second messenger systems. Um, its effects on gastric ghrelin secretion, the various, you know, other GI second messengers. Uh, the effects of the microbiome is a big one, a lot of data indicating improvements in the microbiome. Um, effects on the liver, second messenger systems. Um, FGF21, which is, uh, like, um, basically a hepatic growth factor that is important for energy expenditure. So a number of things that are happening that can benefit the entire body, including the brain, at the gut-brain axis, for example. Uh, so that's our main mechanisms of drinking hydrogen water, and we can see through animal and human studies those benefits.
Andy Smith 09:31
Mm-hmm. And we'll talk about the inhalation a bit in a minute, 'cause I wanna really t- take a deeper dive into that. But when we're talking about the hydrogen water and infusion in the water, it often gets confused with alkaline water so getting put into the same bracket. Why do you think that is, and what's the difference between the two?
Tyler W. LeBaron, MSc., PhD. 09:46
Yeah, they are totally different. And as I mentioned, the H in pH has reference to the hydrogen ion. That's H+, it's just a proton, right? Versus hydrogen gas has two protons, two electrons. It's two hydrogen atoms that are bound together. So they're completely different chemical species in every way. But the reason why they're often conflated is because with alkaline ionized water, when you do electrolysis, th- that, that process basically converts hydrogen ions to hydrogen gas. So if you have a hydrogen ion, which is just a proton, and you add... You take protons and you add electrons to that, you create hydrogen gas. Okay? Protons and electrons, you're gonna create hydrogen gas. That's, that's how chemistry and physics work. Okay? Um, and if you are converting hydrogen ions to hydrogen gas, that means you have less hydrogen ions. If you have less hydrogen ions, the pH goes up. Now you have an alkaline water. So alkaline pH from these machines correlates with production of hydrogen gas. And if, if the ma- depending on the machine, and if it's electrodes are clean and so on, then you can also have dissolved hydrogen gas in the water that can then be potentially therapeutic. And so th- that's why there's been-
Andy Smith 11:02
And that's by eating it, yeah
Tyler W. LeBaron, MSc., PhD. 11:04
Yeah, or, or drinking it. So the alkaline ionized water, for example, right? When you make alkaline ionized water with electrolysis, you are converting hydrogen ions to hydrogen gas. Because you're converting hydrogen ions, you're losing hydrogen ions, the pH is gonna go up, so now it's alkaline water. But you also produce hydrogen gas, and some of that hydrogen gas dissolves in the water. So now you have alkaline water that contains dissolved hydrogen gas. And if the level's high enough, it can also be therapeutic. And so there's, for, for a long time, people have assumed that they can... They're drinking their alkaline ionized water and they're getting benefits because of the alkaline pH. But it's not why. They get benefits because of the dissolved hydrogen gas that was produced during the process of making the alkaline pH. And that's why y- we can neutralize the pH, for example, and still get the benefits. And this has been shown over and over again, that it's just the hydrogen gas. We published a study called The Electrolyzed Reduced Water, uh, Review once. Not a study, but it's a comprehensive review article of numerous studies basically that show that when hydrogen gas is removed from alkaline ionized water, all the benefits are eliminated And when we understand that, then we can, you know, understand the nec- the things that are necessary to optimize the concentration of hydrogen gas and ensure we're getting the benefits of the molecular hydrogen. So that is, I think, is just... That was a major conflation, is people didn't realize that the therapeutic agent of alkaline ionized water was molecular hydrogen. And they thought it was alkaline pH, and it's not. It's the molecular hydrogen. And then through this research, we now know it is molecular hydrogen, and so people start to equate that alkaline pH means you have hydrogen gas. But, but again, it's a correlation, right? Of course, you're gonna have or produce hydrogen gas when you're doing electrolysis. That's the definition of electrolysis. And when you do that, you start to consume the hydrogen ions and convert those to hydrogen ion... convert the hydrogen ions to hydrogen gas.
Andy Smith 13:04
Mm-hmm. So is this ultimately just working as, like, an antioxidant, or is there a lot more going on to this? 'Cause it's what people kinda just spearhead it for.
Tyler W. LeBaron, MSc., PhD. 13:14
Yeah. And, and antioxidant is a good marketing buzzword but it's fundamentally not accurate. And if anything, bio- in a biological perspective, you could consider hydrogen more as a pro-oxidant and in, in a therapeutic hormetic way because hydrogen gas, yes, by a chemistry perspective or definition, is a powerful reductant. It's a, it's a reducing agent. And so that's why you think about hydrogenation of vegetable oils or different things. You... We add hydrogen to different things to reduce them, right? That's what's known as an, as an anti-oxidation aspect, right? So that's, that's true chemistry, uh, wise. But biologically, um, hydrogen gas doesn't really behave in that same way because from a chemical perspective, hydrogen gas is a strong covalent bond, so it doesn't readily react with any free radicals except for maybe the hydroxyl radical because a hydroxyl radical is extremely reactive, so it reacts with anything. Uh, but, uh, the, the biological effects of hydrogen gas are more to do specifically with the mitochondria, and we published a major paper on this in Redox Biology showing that hydrogen gas targets complex III of the mitochondria. And w- as it does that, it can actually transiently increase superoxide production, so that's what I mean by a pro-oxidant-like effect. And that, in turn, can induce signaling cascades to activate, say, the NRF2 pathway, and so increase your superoxide dismutase, right, or other antioxidant enzymes. And now you can decrease oxidative stress. So its, its antioxidant effects are more from its mitohormetic effects. Hydrogen is more of a redox adaptogen, so it really helps to maintain redox homeostasis of the cell.
Andy Smith 14:55
Mm-hmm. Okay. So just putting this into a real-world scenario with hydrogen, um, I'm looking at it from all different applications. We've mentioned now water. We'll talk about the inhalation in a minute. There's, um, the tablets as well that dissolve in the water. So I've, I've tried a number of different ways to apply hydrogen to myself. Um, we're at the Biohacking Conference in Austin at the moment, so we're doing some podcasts here. And one thing, you know, I specialize in PEMF therapy, and we've got a PEMF and red light 'cause it stacks really, really well together, and we're now seeing a lot of people adding hydrogen inhalation into that mix, which is, you know, three am- amazing, um, therapies that you can all do at the same time. For you, how do you apply P- uh, I was gonna say PEMF therapy. How do you apply hydrogen?
Tyler W. LeBaron, MSc., PhD. 15:46
Yeah. So hydrogen water and hydrogen inhalation, I think they are both, um, appropriate ways to deliver molecular hydrogen. They're easy to do. And, uh, in terms of, like, stacking protocols with things, um, yeah, I think that's a fantastic way to do, especially because we understand more of the mechanisms of molecular hydrogen as a, a modulator of homeostasis, and you have the potential to optimize the effects of other types of therapies and negate some of the possible harmful effects. A, a lot of, uh, different modalities and interventions, they can be slightly toxic and slightly, uh, stressful because they o- operate on the principle of hormesis, like hydrogen gas. But hydrogen gas is perfectly redox balanced in the sense that it really helps to prevent an excess stress from becoming harmful to the cells. Um, this is... We sh- shown this, like, with, uh, with cells, for example, if we administer a small amount of hydrogen peroxide and then give hydrogen gas, hydrogen gas has a protective effect. But if you take, um, normal cells and you administer hydrogen gas, you can... it might actually increase sup-, um, superoxide for a little bit, or hydrogen peroxide, and that, in turn, can have a beneficial hormetic effect. So it seems to know just how to push the cells, whether it needs to upregulate something or downregulate something, uh, so that it, it can maintain homeostasis. So combining hydrogen with the other things, such as PEMF or red light therapy and so on, is a great way, uh, I, I think, uh, that it can be stacked together. Um, we need more clinical data on that, but I know that a lot of clinicians, we have a, a lot of people who are using, like, our inhalation machine specifically for that and, and specifically because they know with our machine that there, there's no safety risks.
Andy Smith 17:31
Yeah. Okay. And so you're, you're doing it through inhalation and through your water. But what are you doing it for? What are your main benefits? What are you trying to... Do you know what I mean? What are, what are you trying to achieve in your own life in terms of hydrogen?
Tyler W. LeBaron, MSc., PhD. 17:44
So, yeah, when I'm further away from homeostasis, I wanna bring... come back to homeostasis. So if I'm, um, or, or maybe... So it's... It depends. Sometimes maybe acutely if I'm trying to prepara- get preparation for a harder workout or a race or something, I might do some hydrogen water or even try sometimes some inhalation of hydrogen gas to get that to my system, kind of prepare my body for what I'm about to do. Um, otherwise, um, inhalation after exercise, uh, just for recovery because I tend to do breathing exercises, you know, as I, as I breathe, I... You know, just these, um, inhalations with long extended exhalations and so on, um, just calming down. You can do that with our machine, and you don't, you don't, um, perturb the potential dose you're getting. It's always a therapeutic dose. And so I like to do breathing-type exercises, um, as I inhale the hydrogen gas more for that recovery. Um, but then if there's anything, like, with just may- maybe I, um, didn't get enough sleep or I'm trying to optimize something, you know, then I'll maybe do more sessions like that. But, you know, I've been on hydrogen therapy, I guess, for a very long time. Um, and, and so I'm But again, when I look at the data, I can see just overall health and, and longevity and wellness. I think there might be something there. Um, but it's easy enough to do that it's worth the sacrifice.
Andy Smith 18:57
Yeah. Okay. And what are the biggest differences between the t- the three? Let's talk about drinking hydrogen, inhaling hydrogen, and bathing in hydrogen. So what are the main differences and, and how do we do each one?
Tyler W. LeBaron, MSc., PhD. 19:10
Yeah, with bathing in hydrogen water, there's several ways to do that, um, and there's way- several ways not to do that. Uh, to, to, to do the bathing, you wanna make sure the concentration is high enough so you can, you can even have benefits on the skin. And so in that case, you wanna be at least, you know, probably a half a milligram of hydrogen per liter. Um, you know, it c- potentially even lower than that 'cause it's directly onto the skin. But I know people sometimes think if they take like a little wand and put it into the bathtub and they'll get hydrogen gas in the water, it's probably unlikely to have any benefits at all because the concentration is just, just too low. You can't even measure it at all. Um, and then if you have a high enough concentration though, maybe like, you know, the, some of the bath units can make, you know, up to two milligram per liter, they're, they're more expensive and maybe time-consuming and things, but in that case you can get direct benefits onto your skin. Uh, but some of that hydrogen gas can actually penetrate the s- the skin layer and get into the blood, into the microcirculation, and you could potentially have benefits there. Um, there's a little bit of data on that, but it's not, um, it's not a lot, but more of it, more is emerging. But again, the hydrogen gas wants to follow the path of least resistance, so it's not just, you're not gonna get into the water so it's just the hydrogen gas is just gonna just ooze into your blood. Like it's gonna hit up against your skin barrier and be like, "Well, I don't wanna go that way. I'm gonna go this way." And it's gonna just go out. But you'll get some molecules that'll slowly start penetrating and that's gonna take you, uh, you know, a- an hour before you start reaching potentially micromolar level concentration. So not very high but there are some potential benefits of doing that. Um, you know, soaking a limb or something in there. Um, I know, uh, there's like hydrogen bath tablets that are available. Um, there's some clinical studies on that as well where people can even soak like their, their foot or their hand or their arthritis or something and they'll soak that in there for, you know, 20 minutes and get the hydrogen gas. The idea is to get into the joints and things, so not just benefit onto the skin or wound healing or something, but directly, you know, um, in- into the joints and the circulation. So there could be some potential benefits there. Um, anecdotally-wise, um, not a ton of clinical evidence, but you know, it, it, it makes sense. And then the drinking of hydrogen water we talked about a little bit already. Um, again, you're primarily benefiting, uh, the microbiome and the GI tract second messenger systems, but you're not really getting hydrogen gas at very high levels or even measurable levels into your bloodstream you know, or to the, the various target tissues like the brain, for example. It doesn't mean you won't benefit the brain. In fact, a number of studies show there's really impressive benefits to the brain, but those are probably through via indirect mechanisms. Which is again why taking hydrogen water along with something like inhalation is a good combinational approach. So now it comes to inhalation. Um, when you inhale hydrogen gas, as, as long as you're getting a therapeutic dose, uh, th- through the, through, uh, the correct way, then that hydrogen gas will enter the lungs and diffuse into the bloodstream. It doesn't get attached to the hemoglobin or have a protein carrier or something like that. It doesn't need that. It just dissolves, simply dissolves into the blood. And as it's in the bloodstream like that, uh, then it's diffuses into the cells, into the mitochondria, and then it's reaching your brain and your... It passed through the, easily bypasses the, the blood-brain barrier, right? The cell membranes, reaches the mitochondria everywhere and it gets to all of your tissues, and that's gonna take about 20, 30 minutes or so, um, before it reaches a s- what we call steady state or kind of equilibrium where it's gonna reach that therapeutic micromolar concentration.
Andy Smith 22:34
Okay. Yeah. And it's, it's interesting that you mentioned that you do both because, uh, you know, if, if we compare that to PEMF therapy, you've got kind of low intensity and high intensity, and a lot of people say, "Well, which one's better? Or which one should I use?" And it's kinda like, well, actually they're, they're kinda two different animals and I would use them s- together. Um, and it's interesting you're saying the same thing about hydrogen in terms of the water and, and inhalation. And I think when it comes to the convenience of, of it, um, drinking water is obviously a little bit more convenient, doesn't take time out of your day. Um, but w- what does a typical inhalation, uh, session look like? So, you know, if I wanna stack it with PEMF therapy, how long do I need to be inhaling hydrogen? If you can talk about your device that you're involved in now.
Tyler W. LeBaron, MSc., PhD. 23:20
Yeah. So with, with ours, probably a minimum of 20 to 30 minutes just so it can reach that steady state equilibrium, and then you can stack it right on with your PEMF or your red light therapy or people getting an IV. And a lot of clinicians love to do this, um, with their patients because it's so easy to do actually. Um, if people have it at home, then they can when they're working, right? They're just on their laptop or their computer working or on a, um, you know, or reading something or maybe they're just watching TV or maybe they're taking a nap. Um, so if you do it right, then actually it's, hydrogen inhalation is very easy. It's very low friction to do because you just put the, put the mask on and you inhale and breathe normally and you continue with your work. Um, people often do also like an Asana. They have like these, uh, um, you know, this is like, like a Sa- like some of thoseasanas where your head kinda sticks out still. Um, or there's so many ways to stack this with actually and, and it's just kind of growing. Um, but that way people are being able to get that hydrogen therapy without, you know, doing something, you know, taking an extra hour out of the day or something. You can just do it while, what they're already doing, whether it's even sleeping for example.
Andy Smith 24:27
Mm-hmm. And there's, y- I've heard this thing about hydrogen devices exploding and you know people, people that sell hydrogen water will say, "Don't inhale it, it's dangerous. It'll explode." The other way around, you know. So there's... W- where, where's the truth in this, uh-
Tyler W. LeBaron, MSc., PhD. 24:44
Yeah
Andy Smith 24:45
... in this?
Tyler W. LeBaron, MSc., PhD. 24:45
Well, well first we need to respect the molecule. Hydrogen gas is explosive. I mean, you think of the Hindenburg, you think of a number of other explosions even. A lot of people have experience in their high school chemistry class where the professor will, you know, ignite a balloon of hydrogen or hydrogen oxygen and it's very, uh, powerful and- We need to respect this molecule. Anything above 4% is explosive. That, that's the lower flammability level is 4%. And, uh, uh, typ- if you dissolve hydrogen gas into water, it's no longer flammable, so there's no risk of an ignition or something, or explosion. If I'm drinking hydrogen water, it's like, I don't know, putting gunpowder into water, it's not gonna explode or something, right? Uh, but when you are inhaling hydrogen gas, that's when you have to be really careful, and that's also what difference-- differentiates our machine from any other machine on the market. And this is also what has made me feel comfortable to be part of InhaleH2 and to endorse it the way that I am, is because we are the only company that provides hydrogen gas the way it is done in major clinical studies. When it comes to using hydrogen inhalation, there are three basic questions anybody should ask. And number one, a logical question is, am I certain that with this device I will get a therapeutic dose of hydrogen? And is that gonna be true for everybody, right? Like, so a doctor, he might ask, "Am I sure my patients will always get a therapeutic dose of hydrogen gas with this machine?" Like, that's just such a logical question, and I'm not sure why people aren't asking that. And I, and I, I think it's because they automatically assume that you will. But with a nasal cannula system, which is what every other machine on the market essentially uses, you have no idea how much hydrogen gas you are actually getting. Because what if your-- you or your patient, your friend or whoever, has a deviated septum? What if they're sick and they have a nasal congestion, right? Stephanie knows. What if they're just habitual mouth breathers? What if they are just breathing at higher dynamics, right? They have, you know, respiratory issues. You know, a, a good example might be with oxygen therapy. You know, a lot of-- We, we know people who are on oxygen concentrators or supplemented with oxygen, and they... If I were to ask what is the flow rate they use? Because with hydrogen inhalation, we always talk about what's your flow rate, right? Three hundred milliliters per minute, a liter per minute, three liters per minute, five liters per minute, whatever, right? What, what, what is the flow rate used for oxygen therapy? And most people, they don't, they don't know. But then when you, when you, when you explain it to them, you say, well, some people are only on a couple liters per minute, and other people are up to 100 liters per minute. Why the difference? Why are some people only at a few liters per minute, and some people are, like, way up there at, you know, 50 liters per minute and higher? Yet, in every case, there's only the same target. The target is to keep their SpO2 around, you know, say, 90%, 90% saturated. So we keep the hemoglobin around 90% saturated. So it's the exact same target, yet it requires a flow rate of a few liters per minute to over 50 liters per minute to do that. And that is because everybody has a different body. Their lungs work differently. They-- in, it-- Their, their amount of hydr- of, of oxygen gas, they're inspiring, their nose, everything is so different, so they need totally different flow rates. The same is true with hydrogen gas. It's just that we can't easily measure hydrogen gas, like with a pulse oximeter, and so people have no idea. So the data actually shows when people use nasal cannulas, that you can have a fraction of them that are not even getting 1% hydrogen. And if you don't get 1% hydrogen, it's possible you will not even get a therapeutic effect. So that's a really important thing to consider, that you wanna make sure that if you're gonna use hydrogen therapy for yourself, that you're at least getting a therapeutic effect. And that's why in the clinical studies, you know, we use like... we have ventilators, or we put it into their, you know, with a face mask or something to make sure that the amount being inspired, the fraction of inspired hydrogen is eq- is therapeutic. And it has to be above 1%. So that's the first question you wanna ask is, number one, are you sure it's gonna reach a therapeutic level, right? You can-- Can you... And then number two is, can you control for the dose? Because what if, uh, say, 2% is more effective than 4%? And we see this actually in animal studies. In some cases, like a neurological situation, 2% tended to be more effective than 4%. So most of the studies are done at 2%. So, and then, and then maybe someone, if they have cancer, maybe 4% is more effective. So can you control the dose? Again, with a nasal cannula, you can't really do that. Every inhalation is gonna be different, right? Then the third question is really probably the most important question. Is there any risk of explosion? And if any of these systems that use a nasal cannula, that they provide 100% hydrogen gas or 66% hydrogen gas, there is always that implicit or explicit risk of explosion, because hydrogen gas above 4% is explosive. And so what can happen is people have these nasal cannulas in, and during that transition period or whatever, the hydrogen gas will fill the nasal cavity, the nasal passages, and into the throat, into the mouth, and you can reach explosive levels. And people say, "Yeah, but I'm not gonna smoke." Actually, some people do try to do that, and they've hurt themselves. But even with that, you don't need to smoke or light a match or something. It can just happen just by energy buildup. It takes less energy to ignite hydrogen gas in air than it does to get a static discharge. So just that spark, when you touch the doorknob or something, you have a little spark, that is more energy buildup that was re- required than would be to ignite the hydrogen gas in air. And so That's why it's very important to keep things below 4%. And so in the clinical studies, uh, you know, you have to fix an, an IRB to do the, to do clinical studies and everything. You have to make sure these devices do not go above 4%.. Our device does that. So our device, we patented this technology so the u- the, the user can actually decide what concentration they want between one to 4% therapeutic window, precise dose that they want, exactly say 2% or 4%, and it's never explosive because it keeps it below 4%. And so it makes it very simple for anybody to use, and that's why clinicians also, they love using our product, especially in combination with other therapies like red light or PMF because again, that's l- that's a lot of energy they're putting on, and so that increases the risk of a spontaneous ignition. But with our device, there's no concern with that because we keep it at a therapeutic non-explosive level, and that is very important when it comes to using, uh, this, uh, right now we say an alternative medicine because it's still being researched and investigated for its therapeutic effects. It's not FDA-approved. So the fact that it doesn't have, you know, like, FDA approval even more, uh, requires us to be, to, to use it with even more caution, right? To be even, to r- really be careful with what we're doing because we, we don't really know how effective it's really going to be, and so it's not worth the risk, a risk that is not just hypothetical, but, but something that has been documented in the literatur a number of times where people have had injuries to their face, internal detonations in their airway and things. And so I'm, this is why our, our device is... I, for me, it's, it's very important for people to learn this information because that way if they end up reading, say, my research publications and my colleagues and all these people who are researching on the potential benefits of hydrogen and they want to try it it's nice for them to now have an opport- an option where they can try it. 'Cause again, these studies, we often use these tanks of pre-mixed gas, and we get them specially made, and they're cumbersome and all this stuff to be able to do safely and effectively. And so it's left with practitioners and, and, and home users to not even have an option to do that. But now with this device, they can feasibly go and use this device in their practice without violating fire codes without causing potential harm to their patients and ensure they're getting a therapeutic dose of hydrogen. And so it's, for me, it's really exciting that this, something like this is now available, where people can actually get the hydrogen the way we do in clinical studies.
Andy Smith 33:55
Oh, good. And just one more myth that I wanted to bust before, before we end this episode is a lot of people say that our bodies produce hydrogen. So anyway, it's a known fact our bodies will produce hydrogen, we breathe out hydrogen, that sort of thing. So why do we need to introduce more?
Tyler W. LeBaron, MSc., PhD. 34:10
Yeah, we don't need to. There's no evidence that we actually need to. It's just that it seems that there can be some benefits by taking exogenous hydrogen gas, whether it's through water or through inhalation. And technically, it's not that our bodies produce hydrogen, but the microbiome, w- if you have a healthy microbiome and you have a healthy diet with fibers, then and only then will that produce hydrogen gas. But even in that case, the concentration of hydrogen gas in the blood level is not very high, and you can get much higher when you do inhalation of hydrogen gas, and you're reaching certain therapeutic thresholds that you aren't gonna be able to get through simple microbiome-produced hydrogen gas.
Andy Smith 34:46
Mm. Okay. So anybody listening to this and they wanna take a deeper dive into hydrogen, they wanna look into products and that sort of thing, is there any products you recommend in, in the water, um, industry? Um, you know, you've mentioned your device in, in the inha- inhalation. Um, yeah, is there any, any particular products or, or ways of, of drinking hydrogen that you recommend?
Tyler W. LeBaron, MSc., PhD. 35:09
Yeah, when it comes to hydrogen water, I would just ensure that you're getting, um, from a reputable company. There's lots of ways to do this. There are, there are bottles that can work. You have to be careful, like how much hydrogen you get, how much water you put in there, how long they're gonna last for. Um, be cautious about that. Um, there's hydrogen-producing tablets. I mean, my partner Alex Tarnava is the inventor of the hydrogen-producing tablets, and so he sells to all these, all the brands out there, and those have been shown to be just a very simple, convenient way to get a high, consistent dose of hydrogen. So we use those in clinical studies. Um, but, but there's a lot of ways to, to get it. I mean, even alkaline ionized water, people have gotten hydrogen water through those ways. It's just you have to be careful about the maintenance you use and so on. So I, I tend to, uh, just recommend people ensure that whatever they're getting, that they are, they, they know what the limitations and requirements are to get an optimal amount of hydrogen gas, but there's lots of ways to do that with water. When it comes to inhalation, uh, I will say that there are other device on the market that you can get therapeutic doses from. It's just that if you get a therapeutic dose, there is that risk that it can be explosive to you, and that's not a good idea. And so I, for me, I can only personally recommend this machine, not just because it's one I'm selling, but I'm directly saying is because our machine is the only one that you know it's within a therapeutic window that is not explosive.
Andy Smith 36:31
Mm. And are there any particular mistakes that people are making at the moment when they're going into hydrogen, you know, going into that space? Is, is there, like, a common mistake you see in people you'd, would you just want people to avoid?
Tyler W. LeBaron, MSc., PhD. 36:41
Yeah. When it comes to hydrogen water, they just as- they just, uh, try to buy the cheapest product they can, um, or they try to budget, buy the cheapest tablets. I just learned, um, Alex just told me the other day there's, there's a number of fake tablets on the market right now from, like, Chinese or something that are not this-- they're not even the same color. They're totally different, and it's, there's no hydrogen gas in these at all. And so you wanna buy from a reputable, not only a reputable company, but a reputable source, right? Who's actually selling that? 'Cause it could potentially be fraudulent. Same thing with, you know, bottles. You don't just run out and buying the cheapest bottle or something. Just make sure you do your research on that. And then of course with when it comes to inhalation, people downplay the risks all the time. Like, "Oh, well, this is humidified. Once in the body, there's no, no ignition source," and so on. Um- That's not an excuse, that's not a defense, because this has happened several times. A number of times people have been injured, and I think that if people want to spend a lot of money on a machine, they should at least buy a machine that they are going to ensure gets a therapeutic dose and does not cause a risk of explosion.
Andy Smith 37:49
Yeah, yeah.
Tyler W. LeBaron, MSc., PhD. 37:49
And that's, that's a major mistake that I think, um, people need to really understand and be educated on.
Andy Smith 37:55
And one of the only other, I think, ways I see them is you get like cans now preloaded with, with hydrogen, uh, you know, hydrogen water, infused water. It- Can that work? Is that a good way of doing it?
Tyler W. LeBaron, MSc., PhD. 38:08
Yeah, yeah, it depends. So, so cans, uh, they actually can hold hydrogen water for years. I mean, I've some for like five plus years. Um, one of the issues though is sometimes the concentration is very low. It may not be high enough, uh, just because hydrogen gas will go into the head space, and so initially maybe it was high, but then after a while it's, it's, it's low. Um, but, but they, they can be done. So you just wanna make sure you get it from a reputable brand.
Andy Smith 38:33
Mm-hmm. And s- some people say on Reddit as well, we've, we've read, you know, when we come to the water and stuff, that hydrogen is soluble in water. Is that a complete myth or?
Tyler W. LeBaron, MSc., PhD. 38:44
As we were saying earlier, that technically we often say that hydrogen gas is insoluble because it's-
Andy Smith 38:48
Right
Tyler W. LeBaron, MSc., PhD. 38:48
... relative compared to other substances that dissolve really well. But it does dissolve in water. We can measure it. We can measure with gas chromatography. We can show you what the concentration is, and it's enough to increase the concentration in the blood and induce a biological effect. So you can't... You know, those who value data, well, then here's the data.
Andy Smith 39:07
Hmm. No, good. Okay. Tyler, wish we had more time today, to be honest. Um, but how can people find you? If people want to, you know, con- contact you directly, or if they wanna contact the Medical Hydrogen Institute, or if they wanna look into your inhalation product now, how can they find you?
Tyler W. LeBaron, MSc., PhD. 39:23
Yeah. So Tyler W. LeBaron on all channels, they can find me. Um, when it comes to just education, molecularhydrogeninstitute.org. That's a nonprofit, has no product promotion. We don't talk about my product or anything like that. It's just for hydrogen education. All of our competitors are-- love our institute. They've used it for years, right? Um, that's just, that's, that's... It's very sacred to me, and I keep it that way. Um, if you wanna learn more about the product, then you would go to inhaleh2.com, and that you can, uh, ask your questions there.
Andy Smith 39:56
Thanks so much for your time today. Um, for our listeners, if you're listening on whatever platform, please subscribe, give us a five-star review. It just helps us to get more amazing guests like Tyler onto the, onto the episodes and, and sharing their, uh, explanations with you guys. So again, thanks for your time today, Tyler.
Tyler W. LeBaron, MSc., PhD. 40:11
Thank you. Pleasure.
