Are You Over-Biohacking? Why Doing Less Could Be Better 

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Disclaimer 00:57 
A quick disclaimer before we begin. The PEMF Podcast does not contain any medical advice, and the content provided is for informational purposes only. If you have any health concerns, please visit a healthcare professional.

Andy Smith 01:12 
Welcome to another episode of the PEMF Podcast. Today, we're joined by Dr. Mark Atkinson, a medical doctor and author who'd worked alongside Dave Asprey as a medical director of his company, Bulletproof. Mark has spent more than 25 years working in health optimization and personal development, helping people improve both their physical and emotional wellbeing. So Mark, first of all, welcome to the podcast.

Dr Mark Atkinson 01:34 
Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. I'm looking forward to our conversation.

Andy Smith 01:38 
So in this episode, we're gonna be exploring what it actually means to be a biohacker and how to find out what works for you. Whether you're unsure where to start, already trying a few things, or feel like you're doing everything, we'll look into how to choose your next step, recognize what's helping, and know when doing less might actually be the better approach. So what we normally do is we kick off this, uh, these podcasts with a quick-fire questions. So we'll ask you a couple of questions, quick answer, and we'll take a deeper dive later on in the episode. So to start, can you biohack your way out of a bad diet?

Dr Mark Atkinson 02:14 
Good nutrition, good quality sleep is foundational. So you really got to start with the fundamentals, and of course, we'll cover what those fundamentals are in a minute.

Andy Smith 02:23 
Can doing less sometimes be better for your health?

Dr Mark Atkinson 02:26 
100%. What I tend to find is a lot of people actually less is more, and actually moving towards simplicity tends to be better.

Andy Smith 02:34 
Can you be physically fit but emotionally unhealthy?

Dr Mark Atkinson 02:37 
Absolutely, you can. Uh, emotional health is the capacity to feel, express, and use your emotions in a healthy, conscious way, and that's a very different knowledge and skill set to physical health. So a lot of people need to work on the emotional health.

Andy Smith 02:52 
Should you let a bad sleep score influence or change your day?

Dr Mark Atkinson 02:56 
I think the most important thing with data is to hold it lightly and then to choose how you want your day to be.

Andy Smith 03:02 
Do you need to spend money to be a biohacker?

Dr Mark Atkinson 03:05 
Definitely not. Uh, you start with the fundamentals, the majority of which are free.

Andy Smith 03:10 
What's the most overlooked foundation of good health?

Dr Mark Atkinson 03:13 
A regulated nervous system, and that's shaped by the way you live your life, how you manage your stress, sleep, nutrition, exercise, everything.

Andy Smith 03:20 
Can a biohack that works for one person be the wrong biohack for another person?

Dr Mark Atkinson 03:25 
Absolutely. Biohacking really is ultimately about personalization and discovering through your own direct experience what works for you, and it can... What looks like good for you can be very different for me.

Andy Smith 03:36 
What's one sign that a change is actually happening?

Dr Mark Atkinson 03:40 
There's two sources of data. You've got subjective, so particularly your subjective level of energy and wellbeing and, and restfulness when you wake up, and then of course there's objective data, biomarkers and other things that we'll go into.

Andy Smith 03:53 
No, good stuff. Thank you. So let's take a dive into this episode and let's kind of, you know... I really wanted to take this in a bit of a biohacking direction and, and hopefully we're gonna do a part two with you, um, Mark, where we're gonna actually do more of a medical standpoint into PEMF. So stay tuned for that one. Um, but this one, you know, your... A lot of your spe- s- your, your specialties are around like biohacking and health, and, you know, before I even understood what the term biohacker is, you know, I didn't really even understand that until maybe two or three years ago. So... And people listening to the podcast might also think the same. What is a biohacker? What is that term? You might see it on people's Instagram bios. You know, I've got UK Biohacker on mine. Um, so what is your definition, and what's the best way to break it down to the audience? Like, what is a biohacker?

Dr Mark Atkinson 04:49 
Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so I think firstly, it's a systematic approach to taking care of your body and mind so that you can have the health and life that you want. It's very systematic. It's very intentional. It's well thought through. You're combining both what the evidence says about things you should consider, as well as your own direct personal experience. Um, Dave Asprey, who's considered the father of biohacking, who I worked with for a whole bunch of time, defines biohacking as the art and science, so there's two sides to it, of changing your environment around you and within you in order to have more control over your biology. So it's a really good way of thinking about it, which is what can I adjust in the way I live, in the environment I live within to support my health, and how can I modify my internal world through the input, so nutrition, hydration, sleep, exercise, to move my whole system towards health? Put another way, you could think biohacking is a systematic approach to becoming the best version of you. Not necessarily this perfect version of you, 'cause we don't want to go down that pathway. It's really grounded, in my mind at least, in self-acceptance, but a desire to take charge of your health and to take good care of your health and your life.

Andy Smith 06:06 
Yeah, and it's a great point because- You know, I think when I first heard the term biohacker, and I think a lot of people go down this route, is that they just assume it's this guy with all this tech hanging off his head and, you know, people that implant data into their bodies and, you know, they walk around with a chip and they... all this sort of thing. When actually you was mentioning in there, uh, you know, connecting yourself back to the earth and doing all these different things and, and just actually being, uh, intentional about your health. So literally coming down to the foundations of it, if you are doing something which is proactive towards your health, you know, you, you can coin yourself a biohacker. So I think that's the definition that a lot of people just need to understand, that that's where the, the, the kind of term coined from. But who do you think... who would you consider a biohacker? Who, who, who's being... If someone wants to be a biohacker, who who is this? And-

Dr Mark Atkinson 06:59 
Who is this person?

Andy Smith 07:00 
Yeah.

Dr Mark Atkinson 07:01 
Well, I'd say health and, uh, has gotta be a top three value, right? Which is genuine. You gotta care about your health, and you're willing to put energy and time into taking good care of yourself. One, because it kinda feels good to do so, but also because it makes you a better human being and, and you just show up in a better way. So you got to care about health. Then the second thing is you gotta be quite disciplined in a way. You really gotta be think through how I can, uh, adjust my routines and rituals to better support my health and support the health of the people around you as well. 'Cause sometimes biohacking can look as though it's kinda quite a, um, self-absorbed activity, which is, how can I take care of me? And I really... and I've seen this amongst the biohacking movement, is they tend to care about other people as well. So how can we, you know, um, if we've got a partner or a family, elevate our health together? But the biohacking is really about the mindset of doing that. So it's, I'm willing to take charge to do what I can to, uh, prioritize, uh, health, um, but not make it everything, not become obsessed about it. It's all about, can I enrich my health and my life, but in a systematic way, and can I track the impact of those decisions and those products I'm using and those changes I'm making to actually show that I'm heading in the right direction? So certainly in what we would call biohacking 2.0, it tends to be very goal focused, um, and you use a lot of data, but we'll also talk about biohacking 3.0, which is really quite different.

Andy Smith 08:45 
Mm-hmm. So I think the first time I heard the term and when I really started to understand, like kind of looking into what is a biohacker, was when Gary Brecka went onto The Diary of a CEO with, with, uh, Steven Bartlett, and he was talking about the whole experience with Dana White and how he, you know, he, he cured, he, he healed everything Dana White was going through. Um, but when he was quizzed by Steven Bartlett, it was like, um, you know, "What... how c- what did you advise Dana White do?" So he went through this list, PMF therapy, red light therapy um, all this sort of thing, and he was asked, you know, "What's the price tag on this?" Well, in excess of $100,000. So the question here really is, do you have to have deep pockets to be a biohacker?

Dr Mark Atkinson 09:36 
Not at all, and in, in fact, I'd tend to say if you consider to be a biohacker, which really is just someone who really genuinely cares about their health and, and willing to invest time and energy into it, you gotta build on the fundamentals, of which there really are five. The first is mind. You gotta have a mind that you're creating happiness with. You gotta be able to manage your stress. Um, you gotta be able to use your mind skillfully. So that's often where a lot of my work lies. Then the second pillar is eat, so just good nutrition. Third pillar, move. So that's, you know, about strength training, aerobic endurance training, you know, flexibility, mobility, that kind of stuff. Then we've got, you know, uh, things like connect, which is connecting to things you're passionate about, connecting to nature. And then of course you've got sleep and recovery. I say always start with those five foundations. And then if you do wanna then spend money, spend money consciously, and that tends to be supplementation and health tech and testing and wearables and of course we can cover all those.

Andy Smith 10:36 
Yeah. So you know, we always talk about on this podcast and we say to... you know, that you gotta work on the foundations first. You know, this tech isn't-

Dr Mark Atkinson 10:42 
Right

Andy Smith 10:43 
... the... it's not a replacement for nature. It's not a replacement for all these things, but we can almost see it as an enhancer. If we don't have the time, we can use this tech during that time. But one of the questions I would say is, you know, what, what do you think is most misunderstood about biohacking? So when people first understand the term, where do you think they go wrong and are mis- misled or misunderstood?

Dr Mark Atkinson 11:07 
Yeah. They, they tend to kind of associate it with extreme practices and behaviors and maybe a bit of an obsession.  Um, they tend to associate it with spending a lot of money on, uh, on, on tech and supplements, et cetera, and that's kind of, uh, I guess if there's a continuum spectrum of, of health enthusiasts biohackers, that would be one extreme of it. But really I just see it as like the core of biohacking is this is my body and mind, I'm doing what I can do to take great care of it, um, because it matters to me and it, and it shapes the way that I show up in the world, et cetera. Um, so I think, you know, biohacking, um, is definitely now having its, um, is, uh, awareness is increasing pretty significantly and it's a lot more mainstream than it ever used to be. And so I go to a lot of these biohacking focused kind of conferences and, and you just have a whole bunch of great people who are really passionate about health. They're kind of deeply curious. You see that in a biohacker's mindset, that they're kind of curious. They, they wanna educate themselves. So I say to be a true biohacker, you gotta be willing to educate yourself and learn from others and start to become really quite discerning- Right? Which is that, you know, n- not everything that kind of shines is something that you need to jump on straight away. Keep coming back to what is the outcome that I want? Is this gonna help me get there? Are there simpler ways of achieving that, or can I purchase something that's really gonna accelerate me getting to the outcome I want?

Andy Smith 12:37 
Mm. Someone said to me before, to be a biohacker, you just gotta be inquisitive and ask questions.

Dr Mark Atkinson 12:43 
Yeah, I think so. Just be open and curious, but discerning as well. And, and not get pulled up into, uh, marketing and marketing claims. And, and some biohackers feel they're always missing out when the newest thing kind of comes along. Um, and that can be fun, of course, right? But I think it's kind of fundamentals first, be clear about why you do what you do. Can you afford it? Is it a priority? And also, and we'll come onto this, am I attending to all the other aspects of health, not just my physical health, because of course health is so much more than just physical health.

Andy Smith 13:20 
Yeah, sure. So what led you down this path in terms of y- you know, you developed, uh, a certain health approach. So what led you to that, to developing that, and, and what was that health approach?

Dr Mark Atkinson 13:32 
Well, even when I was in medical school, um, I was meditating. I was really, uh, naturally interested in what would be called the traditional medical system, such as Ayurveda, Chinese medicine. Just kind of very kind of curious and, and open. And even though I, I enjoyed my medical school training, i- it was just obvious to me, it was just in- when it came to matters of health and healing, it was just incomplete. Uh, so I started reading a lot more, and then as I got into exercise and nutrition, um, and what would be called lifestyle medicine myself, then it became really important to me that when I was working with my patients, that I talk about that side of it, which is rather than just how can we get rid of your symptoms, how can we address the root drivers that are leading to these symptoms, put some energy into improving the way you're living your life, managing your stress, you know, nourishing yourself, the quality of sleep. So it kind of came very naturally to me, and then, um, in addition to being a clinician, I started kind of, I guess, educating people around that. I wrote a couple of books, was on TV for a period of time, you know, was writing some of the, um, popular celebrity magazines, and it was just kind of, here's a more holistic approach to health. And it's just really kind of built from there, but ultimately it's about empowering the individual with the knowledge they need to kind of navigate their health. And not just accept with okay health, but actually what can, um, a high level of health look like. And, and so for the last 20 years, that really has been my own personal journey, which was focusing on the areas I used to struggle with, mainly emotional health and mental health. Um, 'cause the physical health actually for a lot of people tends to be a little bit more straightforward. Um, but I'm now at a stage where, like, my, my great joy is to be, uh, in, like, a podcast like this where I can just share some of the insights that I've come across over the years and, and just help point people in the right direction.

Andy Smith 15:40 
I actually met a guy the other day which, um, yeah, hopefully we'll put a link under this episode to who you just reminded me there as to, you know, he, he actually built a framework around PTs. Um, you know, because the, the PT courses is always just about how to help them lift the weights and how to improve their body and how to improve this. Never has there been a framework or, or a, um, course that actually works on their mental health when it comes to mean, that's just so important, and it's exactly like a similar framework to how you work in terms of the physical health and the mental health goes hand in hand. They have to kind of work together sy- you know, synergistically to, for people to perform. So can you just break down your framework to health and how that works?

Dr Mark Atkinson 16:30 
Sure. Yeah. Well, I, I'm big on definitions, and I won't get into the technical side of it, but basically you can think of as, like, health is the capacity of the body-mind system. So we got to think of ourselves, we're a body mind, not just the body. The body mind system to adapt and function well, uh, even when under stress and duress. Um, and so with that in mind, then I break that into four. So we got physical health, which is all about the capabilities and functioning of your biological systems. We got cognitive health, which relates a lot more to kind of brain and mind functioning. We got emotional health, where I've spent the last 10 years exploring, and, and my last book was all about emotional health, True Happiness. And that really is where you got to put a lot of work into being able to develop a healthy relationship with the full spectrum of emotions, and to... Emotions are information, so how to work with that skillfully. And then mental health, which really emerges from our physical, cognitive, and emotional health. And, and the more mentally healthy we are, the more we're able to be present and engage, well-regulated in our nervous system. Um, it supports our growth and development as human beings. Um, it allows us to become much more authentic, um, and to be more resilient. And, and so a large part of my work is through human development framework, which is how do we use these challenges that we have in life, including health challenges, not just to kind of learn about our body mind system, not even just to address it at a symptom level or root level, but how can I change and transform as a human being? So sometimes when we're faced with a significant life challenge, you can just ask yourself, "What deeper quality of my being is being invited to come forward here?" So for me, particularly early on in my journey, it was patience. And self-love and self-kindness. Right now, I've seen this with so many of my, the people I've worked with. Sometimes we need to tap into courage. Sometimes we need to tap into humility. So an integrative approach to health really focuses equally on the physical, the cognitive, the emotional, and the mental health, and it focuses on the different levels you can work at. And what we know is for the majority of people, it's easier to start with the physical because what happens in the physical and biological systems has a big impact, of course, on the way that we feel, our mood state, our mental health.

Andy Smith 19:03 
Mm-hmm. And you mentioned it a little bit earlier, so I wanted to drill into this term. You used biohacking 2.0 and biohacking 3.0.  What do you mean by those?

Dr Mark Atkinson 19:13 
So biohacking is maturing as a movement. It's a movement of people with a shared passion for health and, uh, taking responsibility for their health. Biohacking 2.0 is-- tends to really be about aesthetics and performance. It's kind of very body-centered, um, very supplement heavy. Uh, it's a lot about data and wearables and, um, it, it's about achieving a very clear outcome essentially for your body. Uh, it tends to be focused on energy and performance and resilience, and, and really that's where the biohacking movement started. What's interesting to me, 'cause I know the movement pretty well now, is that over the last couple of years, it is evolving and maturing, and so 3.0 is much more about self-mastery rather than optimization. It's much more about self-actualization, self-transcendence, and so that's much more about engaging in an inner process. It's much more about going into emotional and mental and relational health. Um, so it's kinda using the body and mind that's been optimized and is now functioning really well, 2.0, in service of your own development and growth and having a positive impact in the world. So we're seeing a lot of people getting into meditation and yoga and contemplative practices, moving into neurofeedback, learning how to work with breath and body in order to regulate themselves, exploring transpersonal states of consciousness to make a deeper contact with what I call the inner core, and then also then learning how to work with their shadow. So we all have shadows, all the parts of ourselves that we tend to ignore or deny, so it's having a willingness to do the inner work to grow and evolve as a human being. So 2.0 is really good self-care and optimization, so that's fine-tuning of our health, but 3.0 is about growing and developing as a human being.

Andy Smith 21:17 
Hmm. And, you know, I think a lot of people will resonate with this when I talk about my own personal journey in terms of, you know, when I was 16 years old, the first thing I did was join a gym, you know. So you, you think, okay, you gotta start looking after yourself. You're getting older, you're growing, you're growing into a man, you know, you... Now, the, the first thing I wanted to do was join a gym. Um, I wanted to look buff, and that was my, my main goal. Um, and to get there, I had to be, you know... forget water, it's protein shakes now, and chicken and rice and, and spending hours down the gym and that sort of thing. So we tend to focus more on the physical health, health should we say, with m- with inverted commas, um, way before we start working on any other areas. Why do you think people take that route in the first place? Why does it seem to be the bfirst port of call?

Dr Mark Atkinson 22:17 
Yeah. Well, uh, I think a lot of us, particularly in the early parts of our adult life, are body centered, right? So our center of gravity is, is our body. We notice what our body looks like, what other people's bodies looks like. It's a kind of like the center of our world really, so we kinda start with whatever's, you know, in our field of vision. Um, and it's also a little bit easier to do because it's, you know, there's just some fundamentals you need to do in order to get, you know, significant gains in terms of your physical health. What tends to happen for a lot of people is as they emerge into adulthood, th- them not dealing with their stress and not knowing how to work with their emotions starts creating problems for them, or at least limitations or constraints. So that tends to show up mostly in relationships. And it can also show up in terms of early on mental health challenges, so anxiety, depression, uh, obsessive compulsive disorder. Um, it can show up in terms of low self-esteem or trying to cover up low self-esteem with overconfidence and all that kind of stuff that we've all kind of tried and explored.  Um, so that shows up pretty early on and, and so what I say to people is kinda start with what feels right and true to you. Take care of the fundamentals, particularly your sleep, um, and then start to pay equal attention to working with your stress, learning how to work with your emotions, to use your breath to bring more balance and regulation to your system. And when you notice that you're being over-obsessing around the body at the expense of good self-care and your relationships and your responsibilities, bring some more balance back in. Now, that's a very cognitive thing to say, and for someone who's com- 100% into the gym and that's their world, you're probably not gonna touch 'em. You'll probably require a life situation to wake them up to it. But what I do know is as we grow and evolve, at some stage most of us will come face to face with a significant challenge that we then need to face head-on, typically with the help and support of others, to navigate, and that requires us to go to our- Inner world. And so inside the body is an entire inner world. I call it the inner ocean of the mind, right? And so we have to know how to navigate that and explore it, and that's kind of maybe why, you know, kind of plant medicine ceremonies and breathwork are becoming increasingly popular 'cause that's where you start to know how to navigate these worlds. And what I do know is that if someone is very body focused, one of the best ways to prepare yourself for working on your emotional and mental health is a simple meditation or yogic or contemplative practice in nature. Just something you do consistently, even just five, 10 minutes a day, that allows you to settle in deep beyond the very chatty, busy kind of mind. And, you know, in subsequent podcasts we have together, um, I can even start to share some of these kind of practices. But having a daily discipline meditation, a practice, maybe just using an app, just 10 minutes to sink into and contact what I call the inner core, it changes everything. To be honestly, the happiest, most fulfilled, creative people I've had the pleasure to spend time with, the majority will have a meditative, contemplative practice. And to be honestly you, you know, if, um, if there's one thing I wish I'd started earlier in my life, it was meditation.

Andy Smith 25:59 
Mm. Yeah, for sure. And you know, just people listening to this and thinking, "Oh, you know, well, I don't want to become a monk. I don't..." You know, some people will listen to what you're saying and just think they, you know, they're gonna go way too into this, but you know, how many people listening to this have got up in the morning, got ready for work, driven to work, gone into the office, spent the day in the office, come home, eaten dinner, gone to bed? They haven't, you know, start on the very, very small practices. Just go for a 10-minute walk. That, this is  your starting point. You know, in the evening, okay, leave your phone at home and go for a 10-minute walk. That's your starting basis. You know, these, these are real fundamental, basic changes that you can make that will make a huge impact, and you can start learning the yoga and, you know, all these things. So it's, it's all about simplifying a lot of these things. Um, and kind of coming into this like putting some real world scenarios in place. So, you know, people that are, are hopefully understanding a little bit more as to what a biohacker is, we've kind of crossed that bridge, but we've got someone, you know, say somebody, uh, in looking at your experience, your, you know, when you've spoken to people in the past, they'll say, "Okay, but I, I have trouble sleeping. You know, I, I run a business. I get into bed, I'm thinking a million miles an hour. Um, mind's very busy." Can you give some kind of idea as to what sort of questions you would start asking that person, and maybe some really basic plan of actions, some takeaways?

Dr Mark Atkinson 27:30 
Yeah, very happy to do that. I think the first thing is what is the, your s- how is your sleep impacting you currently? What's the price? What's the consequence? Sometimes we need to bottom it out, right? It's affecting your energy, performance, your relationships. How's it... You know, so you got to connect with the reality of it. How long has it been like this? Has there been a period in your life where your sleep was good? What was going on that was different in that time? So it's just sometimes taking five minutes out to really reflect on it, right? And then really clear, what do you want to have happen? How do you want to feel when you wake up in the morning? So really bottom that out. What does that look like? So you got a clear vision, you got a clear understanding of the consequence. What have you done in the past that's helped? What it be like to reintroduce one or two of those ideas again? Have you read about anything in the past around sleep that you wanted to kind of try out? So, so you can start more of the coaching style, and then I can shift into, well, here's the things you can try, right? Now we've established sleep's really important to them, let's look at the current reality. What time are you going to bed? What's your bedtime routines? It's all about routines and rituals. What do you do in the hour prior to bed, et cetera. And then for a lot of people say is this like it's a fairly consistent getting to bedtime, waking up at the same time each morning. It's early morning light exposure. It's making sure in the evening, particularly after like maybe 7:00 PM, not being overstimulated, not kind of being very mindful about the information that's flowing into your head, into your brain, the stuff you're watching on TV or watching on your screens. A big thing I see a lot of is people taking their screens and mobile phones into the bedroom. That's generally a big no-no. Um, and so it's just like could you for, as a weeks experiment, leave your phone downstairs, you know, not check your emails, you know, after CP, um, 7:00 PM, even do it for 24 hours, see what happens. Can you, um, enroll your partner, your family in doing exactly the same? 'Cause sometimes it's like it can be much harder to make significant changes if you live with someone else, but if you get everyone else involved, it's so much kind of easier. Um, so kind of we call this sleep time hy- um, hygiene, you know, cooling your temperature, making sure it's completely dark in your room, et cetera, not exposing yourself to bright lights, definitely being off screens at least half an hour beforehand, journaling, reading something to decompress, um, the nervous system, and then just like a calming practice, you know, whether it's a simple breathing practice, five-minute meditation app that we talked about, uh, below. And then I can say, "Do it one day at a time." 'Cause people will kind of think, "Oh my gosh, it feels like such a..." And it's one day at a time. If it goes well, we'll extend that to another day, and then another day. And then what tends to happen, particularly around sleep, is that people just feel so much better. Right? And then when they have a late night, disturbed night, drink alcohol too late, eat too late, the sleep goes off, then they really don't feel very good. So I, I think it's about choosing one or two things that you're committing to implementing, uh, for one or two nights as an experiment, and if you do live with someone else, getting their support. So I had one client- Was all up for this, and you said, "I'm not gonna take my mobile phone upstairs," but then his partner had her mobile phone on. So until they had that conversation, and then she understood it. You know, I said, "Explain to her why this matters." Why this matters, why you're doing it, and then that enrolled her in it, they do it together, and that worked out really well.

Andy Smith 31:05 
Yeah. And something I just want to share on this point, because it's something that, um, funny enough, it's taken me up till very recently to really crack this and understand this, um, is that, you know, your, your sleep pattern and your circadian rhythm and that thing kicks in when you wake up. And, you know, so everyone is trying to optimize their time in which they're going to sleep, but really it matters the, the minute you wake up. And, and something that I've noticed a lot more recently is that if, if somebody tries to get up, so say your normal waking hour is, is, or your normal waking time is 7:00. So you decide, you know, I'm gonna get up at 6:00 tomorrow to do an hour workout. I'm gonna, I'm gonna get that in. They do that, they wake up at 6:00, they get their hour workout in, and they feel rubbish the rest of the day. And consistency in bedtime and sli- and, and wake time is so, so important, and it's something that I've just really cracked recently. It's like, okay, if I'm gonna once or twice a week get up at 6:00 and do a workout, that now means I need to get up at 6:00 every day.

Dr Mark Atkinson 32:10 
100%.

Andy Smith 32:11 
Every single day, set it at 6:00, and go to bed that little bit earlier if you need to, to make up the hours. And you realize that, you know, anybody that's listening to this episode, try this. You know, if that's you, if you're doing a couple of mornings getting up earlier, and then the nor- the other normal mornings you're getting up at the normal time shift that to make it consistent wake-up and consistent bedtime, and honest to God, you'll feel completely different. And that 6:00 and that workout doesn't feel hard anymore. So it's just a, you know, a point and something I wa- really wanted to share, and another takeaway for this episode. But there is so much noise online, you know? You, you... It's a minefield. And I don't know if you've got any tips for people listening in terms of any ways of sifting through that noise and, and finding, you know, any ways, any practical tips that you can give to people in terms of what they should be listening to, or what due diligence they should be doing in terms of these sorts of practices.

Dr Mark Atkinson 33:12 
Yeah. I think there's a couple of things. I think, uh, is the person who's speaking walking the talk? Are they experience... Are they kind of sharing what they're sharing from experience, or is it book-based knowledge? Um, do they have experience in really helping people? So it's one thing to kind of educate a large audience, but actually have they got experience working one-on-one with people? Um, uh, are they being authentic? Um, are they being grounded? Um, are they kind of being, uh, nuanced enough so that it can be personalized, the information? So n- that's why if you ask me about seeing, I want to give you loads of different angles, because it's up to the individual to kind of find it. Are they empowering you, or are they positioning themselves as the authority, right? Because ultimately it's like, no, it's your health. This is for you. Are they rigid in their recommendations, which is a big red flag, or are they offering these perspectives, but w- with a light touch?  Right? Um, and then I think it's how much more information do we need? It's, it's not so much that people need more information. If anything, they need less information, and it's just taking a couple of insights, like the consistent wake-up time, and implementing it. That's a really important point, and I think I was guilty of this early on. We spend a disproportionate amount of time looking for information, whereas actually most people know what they need to do, and it's actually just more about actually making a couple of small changes, habit changes, and implementing it. So it's all about a balance as well. And the other thing is also just how does this person make you feel when you're listening to them? Is it making sense? Making sure you're not elevating them, right? In, you know, this kind of celebrity-focused culture. No, they're just a human being with a particular experience and expertise, et cetera. And then really, um, applying the bit that resonates in your own life to see if what they're saying is true and helpful.

Andy Smith 35:18 
Mm. And I think that leads quite nicely onto the next point where you have, you know, if you're having people that are almost looking at a guidebook with an outcome, so they're coming in and they're saying, "This is my symptoms," and, you know, somebody opens the Bible in front of them and says, "Symptoms, and this is the outcome." Whereas we know realistically everybody's different, and the journey's gonna be different for them. So how would you differentiate two people in the same situation, the same starting point but to start them on a different path, if that makes sense?

Dr Mark Atkinson 35:51 
Yeah. So now we're kind of moving into y- someone needing to work with either a health optimization coach, functional health practitioner, someone who has the knowledge and the skill to personalize. Um, because different symptoms can originate from different causes, right? So it could be, "My sleep's not great, my energy's not great." Well, for one person it might be because they've got a chronic latent infection, they've got low iron levels, their thyroid is off. So that's where the work needs to happen. Another is they've got unprocessed trauma in the nervous system, and they're unhappy in their relationship, whatever it be. So I think it's, you know, partnering up with someone who can ask the right questions. It's about understanding you, your life, the context. Context is everything. And then finding a clear starting place. What are the one or two things that are gonna be relatively easy to implement to see if we can head, head in the right direction? Setting realistic expectations. What I would typically say is when someone has chronic health-related symptoms, that they haven't been able to figure out what's going on, is to find and work with a practitioner to work with them who's trained in a more integrated functional approach.

Andy Smith 37:13 
And people might not go into looking into improving their health because initially m- they might think, well, that means adding new things and adding new processes, and they don't have time for it. Are there things that you think very easily, you know, or, or are there areas that you suggest to people to actually remove first before adding new things?

Dr Mark Atkinson 37:36 
Yeah. Generally, for people who are super busy and always on the go and always doing stuff, it's actually a really good place to start by actually, what sh- could I stop do or could I pause doing? Less is more sometimes. So what am I currently doing each day that potentially is actually working against my health and my energy? So maybe for a week, I'm not gonna drink alcohol in the evening. Maybe for a week, I'm not gonna snack after dinner. Maybe for a week, I will put my mobile phone down at kind of 8:00 PM, right? So, and I think is like, you know, I'm gonna s- you know, stop eating ultra-processed foods, right? Or from a mental health perspective, I'm gonna stop complaining for twenty-four hours. I'm gonna stop blaming other people and blaming life for twenty-four hours. So sometimes that's actually the easiest, most free way to stop is actually just find one or two things that you do that's not really helping you. And if you're stuck, maybe ask the people around you what you could stop doing, right? They'll give you some ideas. Partners, family members, colleagues, great source of feedback, right? Um, and so you can actually start with that.

Andy Smith 38:58 
And somebody coming to you in the past or, or now even and saying, you know, they want to improve their health and these are all the different challenges they've got what could a first week realistically look like for them?

Dr Mark Atkinson 39:09 
Yeah. So of course it, it depends, and, and the caveat is we've got a very clear idea about what they do want to have happen. So a lot of people say, "I, I don't want to feel so tired, um, I don't want this, I don't want that." We've got to start with what you do want, so we're very clear about whether they're heading in the right direction. Generally, it starts with a couple of things. You remember those fundamentals. The first one is mind. How are they dealing or not dealing with their stress? What in their life is putting them under pressure? Where are they struggling? Are they building in activities through the day that brings them joy and happiness and relief? Are they kind of decompressing after a proper day? Are they in, stuck in survival mode? Right. So one of the first things pretty much I do for all my clients is just a simple centering practice I teach them. Um, and I'll, I'll do it now if I may. Should we do this?

Andy Smith 40:00 
Let's do it.

Dr Mark Atkinson 40:01 
Okay. So here's what you do. When you notice you're stressed or you're stuck in an unhelpful story, in the moment of noticing it, you just soften your gaze in your eyes. We hold a lot of tension around our eyes, and then you tune into the spaciousness all around you. So that just helps to activate the relaxation response. Then you soften your tongue. So what happens is when we're called for mental chatter, we get what's called sub-vocalization, internal mental chatter. You soften the tongue, that actually calms the mat- uh, the chatter down. Then you breathe into your lower belly without thinking. Count down five, four, three, two, one. Soft eyes, soft tongue, breathe into the lower belly, and what happens is that puts us into a state of presence. When we're present, our nervous system is regulated. We've activated what's called the ventro vagal branch. We now feel connected to ourselves to the present moment, and then life from here feels so much more different. The mind is more quiet. The emotions are more calm. Now we're much more in the present moment, and then from here, typically we make a lot better decisions. So I teach pretty much all of my clients that, and then the second thing I teach them is when difficult emotions come up, you welcome them rather than fight them, right? So a lot of people, and this is how I learned about it, when we're stuck in the same old story, the same old blame story, the same old worries, the same old anxiety, sitting underneath that story in the body is that unprocessed emotional charge sitting right there. If you learned how to welcome and work with that, and there's a whole system for doing that, then what it does, it tells the body in this moment, I'm safe. When we're constantly fighting what we're feeling, fighting reality, that keeps the nervous system in survival. So learning how to shift the nervous system out of survival into connection is number one. Number two would be really dialing in their sleep. And then number three would be is like, what are the one or two things you could stop doing that would be good for you? And for, particularly for very busy people, how can we build more rest and recovery into your day? And for people who have struggled to experience happiness and joy, what can you do each day to connect to joy? And then I think just as a simple thing, the way you start your day, the way you finish your day is everything. Can you even just take five, 10 minutes to begin the day to do a gratitude practice, appreciation practice, meditation, just something that moves you into your heart, moves you into what I ca- call the inner core beyond the narrative mind, and then at the end of the day, finish with your appreciations and gratitude. So just bookmarking the day, regulating the nervous system- ... improving sleep, and then typically taking a couple of supplementations and potentially, you know, particularly if there's a musculoskeletal, you know, kind of issue or fatigue issue, bring in some health tech for them to purchase. That, that's pretty much the kind of foundations.

Andy Smith 43:02 
Mm-hmm. And do you have any kind of tips in terms of people, keeping people consistent after the initial buzz? So you know, we see this in the PEMF industry, we see, you see this in any, any industry when, you know, there's enthusiasm. You see this with, uh, gym memberships, you know? People are very enthusiastic when they've just signed up to a gym membership, um, and they'll go consistently for three months, and they'll start seeing benefits, and they'll start seeing all these things, and great, life's going great. But then things start to drift off and life gets busy and, you know and, and the same thing. We see people getting these amazing benefits from PEMF therapy. They're using it consistently, and then three months down the line they're starting to peter off a bit, use it less often. So do you have any real world tips in terms of keeping people motivated to keep going three, five, six months down the line?

Dr Mark Atkinson 43:52 
Yeah. Well, it's, I think it can be challenging for a lot of people, particularly if they travel, they're overseas, they're getting unwell, they're stressed, there's other pressures. But the real key is to build our routines and rituals which just automate this. So in biohacking, we talk about what can you change in your environment and your routines. You know, so say for example, you know, the way I use the Cellebrite PEMF mat is it's right next to my bed. And so, um, after I've done my meditation and my breathwork, it's how I kind of start it, um, then I'll put the PEMF mat on my bed, and then I'll actually kind of go through the news, through the news of the day. So just integrate it into my kind of routines. So that's the first thing. And then the second thing is to preempt ahead of time, uh, how we may get off track. Right? So it will be classic thing, like you go away on a holiday for a week and your routines all change, and you can just think through, "Okay, when I get back, I really must buy in the healthy food. You know, I, I really must do X, Y, Z." You can preempt it as well. And the other thing is having people around you to support you with accountability. So that could be a friend, the person you live with, you know, a, a coach, a therapist, whatever it might be. Um, and then I guess the fourth thing is just to accept we're also human. Um, and there will be periods of time where perhaps you won't be able to do the things we know that are good for us, and to go easy on ourselves. And just because we haven't done something for a week, we can start again. And then it's just, okay, tomorrow I'm gonna do X, Y, Z. And the final thing I would just say is planning out your week. Right? If you want to consistent go down the gym, go for a run, schedule it, preempt what could get in the way of it happening and preemptively navigate that. The things that really matter, you've got to ring-fence and kind of protect. Uh, particularly, you know, if you're into healthy eating and nutrition, you've got to buy in the food preemptively. You just can't rely on looking into the fridge and then figuring it out. So sometimes being more organized and schedule can really help. Others, perhaps the way to organize and schedule, and you need to kind of have a bit more flexibility. It's about balance.

Neuronic Ad 46:11 
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Andy Smith 46:57 
Yeah. And you mentioned community in there. You know, for me it's a, it's a big one. It's, it's just y- if you're going down the pub with friends, we start seeing that now as a negative place to be because of alcohol, because of the bad influence and that sort of thing. But, you know, you don't have to drink alcohol, but you can replace that with so much stuff now. But having that community, you know, people are playing paddle these days, you know? But it's, y- yeah, there's a, there's an exercising side to this, but also the community that comes with being with four of your friends and having a bit of banter and laughing and stuff is-

Dr Mark Atkinson 47:27 
So important

Andy Smith 47:28 
Just so incredible for your health. And, you know, there's clinical trials and studies now coming out that people that have the community around them will, will last longer. It's, it's not just woo anymore, it's, it's  solid science.

Dr Mark Atkinson 47:41 
Yeah. Yeah. And you know, the community, uh, well, one way of understanding is that we don't have a separate mind. You know, what we think is my mind is actually shaped by the minds of others. So what we expose ourselves to, who we expose ourselves to, the people we keep company, you know, what we listen to, is constantly shaping our own mind, which shapes our decisions and behaviors. So it's like if someone really wants to be healthy and take good care of their health, surround yourself with other healthy people where this is the norm, right? Go to those conferences and summits where you're gonna meet like-minded people. Listen to those podcasts, read those books, you know, enroll at least one or two other people in what you're up to. And then with that support, you're so much more likely, uh, to receive, uh, um, uh, help. The final thing I would just also say as well, I see this in biohacking 2.0, it can be very individualistic and self-focused. And I would say in all of our growth and development, there comes a time we need the help and support, guidance of others. It's very important we're open to that, right? We were not designed to be in a world- alone and hyper individualistic. In order to grow and evolve, we need feedback, we need mentorship, we need guidance. You know, um, we will do the best we can do to the best of our ability, but if we wanna grow and develop, and particularly health and inner growth, et cetera, seek out wise counsel, wise teachers, wise mentors, and you'll know if you're in the presence of such a person because they genuinely care about you, they want the best for you, and they're there to support you in kind of flourishing. So just putting it out there, we all need that at some stage in our growth.

Andy Smith 49:19 
Yeah, 100%. So people listening to this could also be frustrated because they might be listening and thinking, "Okay, well, the reason I'm on this podcast is because I am biohacking. I am, uh, doing... You know, I'm eating well, I'm exercising, I have community, I have all these things, but I'm still feeling rubbish or there's still something not right." Um, do you have a protocol to figure out what's serving somebody and what's not, and what they could be improving?

Dr Mark Atkinson 49:48 
100%. If someone is doing the fundamentals but still not feeling great, then there is a reason or reasons for that that need to be identified. Now, it's tempting, this is what I was kind of saying before, is that it's tempting to try and figure it all out yourself. I think you can start with that, but there needs to be a moment in time where you engage someone else and their brain and their expertise, and particularly if it relates to health, it's, you know, an, an experience integrated functional medicine practitioner, nutrition practitioner, doctor clinician because you may have a hormone issue, a toxicity issue, an infection issue, you know, a microbiome issue, right? And if you don't have the knowledge and expertise, you know, to identify that, which most people wouldn't, you got to get that input. It may be you need some, um, blood tests, uh, done, you know, and there are the functional, uh, tests you can do on your urine and your saliva as well. There's like... So I think if you're looking after the fundamentals and you're still not feeling great, that's probably the moment where you should get, um, some extra kind of, uh, input, uh, from an experienced, uh, practitioner or coach.

Andy Smith 50:59 
Yeah. And you mentioned, you know, doing bloods and things like that, and it's coming up quite a lot at the minute. And just to give a personal experience, you know, I, I love a supplement and I love to, you know, meeting lots of brand owners and that sort of thing and, and I'm just taking all the ones that I think are the best. And it wasn't until about a year ago that I had my bloods done that I actually worked out that my, you know, I'm supplementing with vitamin D, yet my vitamin D levels are actually through the roof. So it's really important to have the bloods done a lot of the time and just, just to understand, especially if you are supplementing and, you know, like, like you said, there could be an underlying issue. My my wife has had a, a, an iron deficiency for, for many, many years which has just gone completely undiagnosed and untreated by, by the UK NHS system because and actually even though she had her bloods tested, their guidelines for what is a low iron level is, is pretty barbaric, to be honest. You know? They would say that's normal levels, but until we actually looked into it more. So, you know, just... You just need to ask the questions. You need to be looking into this and, and getting a bit more data-driven evidence.

Dr Mark Atkinson 52:05 
Yeah.

Andy Smith 52:06 
Um, we also see people flip-flopping. You know? Like, they'll be a vegan one week, the next week they'll be you know, a carnivore, and they, they're all trying all these different things. But how long would you suggest to people that they need when they've made a change before seeing whether that change has has settled, has worked, before jumping into, you know, from the frying pan into the fire, shall we say?

Dr Mark Atkinson 52:31 
Yeah. Of course, it depends, there's context, et cetera, but, you know, maybe two or three months, uh, to see if a change kind of settles. Um, uh, there's a point I just wanna go back to on what you just shared there is, um, you cannot know how healthy you are until you've done testing. So there's, like, quite a few people who say, "I feel healthy, therefore I am healthy." And I'll say, "There's no... Your objective data tells you whether you're healthy," right? And so you got to do your blood biomarkers, you got to know your blood pressure, you got to know your kind of, you know, body fat percentage, you know, your fat mass you're carrying, et cetera. We need data in order to make an informed, uh, choice around it, so that's such an important point. And I would say at least when you get into your 30s, you know, at least annual blood tests. And the other thing with blood tests is sometimes we get blood tests back and they say they're all normal. Well, that's normal according to the range of the laboratory that you're receiving, but maybe you didn't test for the right thing, right? And so that's where the experience of a health practitioner comes in, who can actually help you identify the right tests that are relevant to your symptoms, uh, et cetera.

Andy Smith 53:44 
Yeah. And, um, you know, a big question in, in this episode is where do wearables come into all of this?  Because, you know, actually looking... Oh, you, you, you've got a wearable on. Um, I don't at the moment. Where do, where do wearables fit into this for you?

Dr Mark Atkinson 54:00 
Well, I think it's, um, is this gonna be helpful in me making and sustaining positive change? Um, so if it's helpful, I think it's great. Is it affordable? You know? So I got the Google Fitbit, very affordable, you know, 89, uh, UK pounds. Provides me with some really helpful data that I hold lightly, but what I'm looking for is trends and patterns. Um, where I find it can backfire is when we become obsessed with our data to the degree to which we're out of tune with our own body's signals. And so where we wanna get to is a place where over time we're very aware and in tune with our body's own feedback system, 'cause the body is a feedback system. Um, we're able to accurately read our energy, our mood, et cetera. So we need awareness first. Why meditation is so important, so we can be aware of it. We can use data like with wearables, so you know, I had an aura for many years and, and, and at one stage it wasn't changing anything about the way I was living 'cause my sleep was dialed in, so I d- I didn't actually need it, uh anymore. But if it's helpful for a period of time, for sure, we've just got to watch it though. If someone has a propensity to health anxiety, it can really backfire. Right? So you know, health anxiety is where we're kind of disproportionately being worried about our health and, um, and we get too caught up in the numbers. It's really about patterns and trends, is it helpful, um, et cetera. And, and ultimately learning how to live in harmony with our body, and you can eventually be pretty good at this where you wake up and you can sense how much sleep you get, you know, what- how much deep sleep you got, what your sleep score is, where your heart rate variability is, uh, et cetera. Many people who are biohackers will go through phases. They tend to start off kind of loads of supplements, loads of tech, loads of wearables, loads of data, and there's exceptions of course, but then as people mature and, and, and they become experienced with using it, they will tend to simplify more. Right? Um, and be much more targeted and precise in, in, in what they're looking for.

Andy Smith 56:23 
Yeah, and you know, given my own personal experience and, and why I said you're wearing one and I'm not at the moment, um, you know, being in the PMF industry, we're all about harmless and, and very low frequencies and that sort of thing. And you know, one of the things that worries me slightly with some of the wearables is that they've got Bluetooth running constantly and Wi-Fi ability.  So that's just one thing for me that, um, kind of is in my mind. However, I do use wearables. Um, but I use them for about two months at a time and this comes into what you say, you know, y- you effectively wouldn't get a blood test every month for 12 months. You know, you, you once you get your bloods done, you know what they are. You might get them done another six months later and see where you're going. So the same thing for me, you know, once I've got two months worth of data in terms of my sleep scores, where my HRV is, then, you know, I'll take it off for a good six months and I'll implement as many changes as I can. Then I'll put it on for another two months and see where things have shifted and see where things have changed. So again, it's all about not getting lost in these technologies. Not overcomplicating it and not getting, you know when, when the first thing you do when you wake up is grab your phone and check your sleep score you need to dial it back a little bit. Um-

Dr Mark Atkinson 57:38 
I, I think that's kind of very sensible and, and ultimately, uh, another way of looking at 3.0, BIO 3.0, is it's about becoming very conscious in what we do and why we do it. Um, so with my wearable, the reason I wear it is because I'm working with a personal trainer. We're, we're looking at, uh, my steps that I'm, um, uh, doing, you know, and we're tracking that, it's very intentional about it. But when I don't need it for that, I won't wear it. Right? So I think, yes, the other thing is with experience we become a lot more conscious around it, considered around it, we're better prioritizing stuff, and there's more flexibility, right? So one of the hallmarks of a f- of, of a healthy mind is that it's more flexible and that it adapts and it's, um, more context specific. So but I think when people jump into biohacking and health enthusiasm, they want everything, right? And that can be a lot of fun, right? And, and you know, particularly if you're curious and passionate about it, et cetera, and you're trying this and trying that, what I say to a lot of people is just kind of slow it right down. You know, just learn, ingest it, and then just really reflect on do I really need this? Why am I intending about purchasing this? Do I have a very clear use for it? And can I envisage how I can incorporate it into my life and my lifestyle so I can really get the most out of it? So the big thing like for me with a PMF mat is to be able to use it every day. Because when you're consistent, you're so much more likely to use it and benefit from it. So it's really thinking through how can I actually realistically integrate it into my lifestyle? There's a lot of biohackers with a whole bunch of health tech sitting up in their attic- ... that is not being used. So it's really good and it can be challenging sometimes if we have a tendency to impulsive purchase, um, but to think things through as much as we can.

Andy Smith 59:37 
Yeah, and you know, we had, um, Dr. Nicola Connon on the, on the podcast before talking longevity. Great episode and actually she talks about over biohacking. So you know, I went through the phase myself. I've got a sauna at home, I've got a hyperbaric oxygen chamber. I've got a PMF red light, uh, ice bath, you know, I've got all the tech and at one point, one stage, I was trying to fit most of that into every single day. Which is first of all unachievable. Second of all, you know, a waste of time, a lot of time, and, and actually what we, me and, uh, Dr. Nicola Connon were talking about is, is that actually can be counterproductive as well. That we're getting a lot of people testing their biological age that are super biohackers and expecting an age of 20 and, and actually getting older than their, their age because they're actually putting their body through too much stress. So um, but when, say for example, somebody has now, you know, they've, they've starting to see some positive shifts and some positive changes after some suggestions that you've made to them. At what point do you introduce something new or don't you? You know, is it, is it, is is a good idea to kind of keep things evolving? Um, you know, new practices or, you know once we've found a golden nugget, should we stick to it?

Dr Mark Atkinson 01:00:52 
Yeah. It's kind of tend to build on the foundationals and build momentum. It's all about building momentum. So we get into negative cycles and habits and behaviors, and once we start building positive momentum and we've got a clear goal as to where we wanna go, then it's like what else could we add in or introduce that will help along the way, um, that won't come at the expense of, uh, the fundamentals? Um, and you know, for some people that could be, for example, say if you need to exercise more. Okay, so you've started, um, and, and you mentioned this before about going for a walk after dinner. I do that with my wife. Uh, it's one of the easiest ways to get your steps in, et cetera. Um, but say if someone's only doing aerobic training, going for a run, jog, swim, whatever, but they're doing no resistance strength training, that's the obvious next thing, uh, that they need to address. And if their mobility's not great, then we need to work on that. So starting with the fundamentals but then going a little bit deeper right? You know, maybe they're sleeping a little bit better, but there's a lot more that could be due for the sleep. So it's just going deeper and deeper and deeper. If it's all relevant to them, you know, they're motivated to, uh, to address it.

Andy Smith 01:02:07 
Mm-hmm. And you know, I've suggested that to somebody in the past about going for a walk after dinner and the... and one of the things they said to me was, "But I don't have a dog."  Which I thought was the most crazy answer.  You know? It's like you don't have to have a dog to go for a walk around the block.  You know?

Dr Mark Atkinson 01:02:22 
Yeah.

Andy Smith 01:02:22 
It's, it's, it's not a... it's, it's a very normal thing to do, you know? And just start thinking about your own health.  Um, why do you walk a dog? Because it's, it's good for the dog. So, you know so you need to take yourself for a walk or like you said, take the wife for a walk.

Dr Mark Atkinson 01:02:36 
Yeah, that's right. And the thing y- and then, you know, if you're into the science behind it, it's like there's so many benefits around it, like which is, you know, going for a walk after dinner helps to stabilize the blood sugar, stops the spikes, so it's better for your glycemic blood sugar control. You know, um, you're exposing yourself to the, um, uh, to dimmer light. Um, so that's very good. There's getting the steps in. There's the experience of being outdoors. There's the social aspect of it. It really hits a lot. And there's also a clear demarcation between the very busy active day and the transition into evening and sh- and shifting our internal gears. So it's also symbolic as well.

Andy Smith 01:03:18 
Yeah. And a good takeaway there, you know, something... m- my wife is very opposite to me when it comes to the lights. She always wants bright lights and I don't know why that is, but I you know, one of the things that you can take away is actually to... a lot of people have the under counter lights in their kitchen, you know? So in the evenings just use them. Every other light goes off, just put the under counter lights on, and it actually kind of replicates the sun coming down as well, so just another little takeaway. Um, and then just stop your wife from coming in and switching all the lights on, which is what happens at my house, but she's learning, she's learning. Um, some people strive for a perfect, perfect routine. And we've kind of touched on this already, but like at what point, and do you... is there any signs or symptoms that people can look out for when actually their perfect routine is actually not serving them anymore in terms of they've gone too far, you know? What should somebody be looking out for and think, "Oh, okay, hang on. I've, I've taken this too far now I need to reel back"?

Dr Mark Atkinson 01:04:20 
There's quite a few signs. I think the first is, um, is there any negative consequence to their relationships and their responsibilities? Right? Um, if this overfocus on self and routines is negatively impacting relationships with, you know, with others, children, partner, work, whatever, then that's an indicator it's probably off balance. Is it excessively self-focused? Right? So self-care, of course you're caring about yourself, but you don't want to be self-absorbed. You know, if we're not showing up for others and for the people around us and the community and the environment, it's like we've gone way too far. Has it become rigid or obsessive? Do we become angry and defend it to protect it? Does it bring out the worst in us, bring out our reactivity, et cetera? Um, so those are some of the signs. And, and you know what it is also? It tends to be am I equally taking care of my emotional and mental health as much as I am my relationship health, as much as, you know, my passions, my hobbies, et cetera? Is my life in a dynamic state of balance, right? You know, um, and ultimately it's like am I feeling happy and fulfilled, and are the relationships that mean a lot to me also doing well as well? Because sometimes strict routines are a way to hide from relationships and responsibilities under the guise of I'm just taking care of my health.

Andy Smith 01:06:02 
Yeah, exactly that. And you know, if, if people are waking up feeling anxious and annoyed because they may have missed part of their wellness routine, you know again, it's another sign that i- it's, you know, this may be taking over slightly. Um, another thing that people can do is that they wake up and they look at their sleep score and it says 20%. How can someone not let that affect their, the rest of their day?

Dr Mark Atkinson 01:06:30 
Yeah, they have to admit to themselves that it's happening. Right? You gotta be honest with yourself. Um, the second thing is if, if they're getting agitated about the scores, uh, it's probably to go for a period of time of detox and to stop it for a while, right? Um, um, third thing would be to actually share with someone just actually how stressed it's kind of making you. And you know, if they live with someone they're gonna know that, uh, already. The other thing is, you know, to remind ourselves that ultimately we're here to find a way as best we can- To live an enjoyable and fulfilling life. Life is to be lived as much as we can, and if we're fortunate and blessed enough to live in a part of the world where there is no immediate threat to our safety, then that's a great honor and blessing. So if we're not waking up with appreciation naturally in our hearts, um, if we're not able to readily access, uh, joy and inner ease, then that's just feedback that something is yet to be done, um, with our nervous system, with our lifestyle, et cetera. Um, so admitting it to ourselves that maybe it's, you know, obsessive pursuit of perfection if it is not grounded in genuine self-acceptance and self-love, it's a cover-up job, right? And for a lot of people, there is a transitional moment that I see, which is they go from trying to perfect, trying to control. It's all about control and perfection and rigidity. The transition to biohacking 3.0 we talked about is much more about letting go. It's about trusting, it's about opening, it's about surrendering. Um, it's about letting go of rigidity. It's about being more open. Um, and a much more emphasis on relationships and meaning and contribution, and that can be a function of a movement towards another level of maturity.

Andy Smith 01:08:38 
Yeah. And cheat days, you know, something I want to ask you about because exactly, you know, it leads onto that in terms of, you know, should someone's routine... You know, give an example is, um, I've got UK Biohacker written on my Instagram bio, uh, bio, but I will have the odd beer, you know? And and, and in the past, I've uploaded a story with me drinking with my friends and you know, it's not something I make a habit of like I used to. But the, the kind of messages I get through my Instagram is like, "You call yourself a biohacker. You're sitting there drinking beer." You know, should we be striving for this perfection, or can we have cheat days?

Dr Mark Atkinson 01:09:19 
Well, here's the thing. Um, it's ultimately your choice. It's your life. You live it as you wish to the best of your ability. You have a right to do that as long as it doesn't have a negative impact on the people and world around us. That's the first thing. The second thing is it always depends, right? If someone's got a alcohol issue or a problem, and they know they have, then they shouldn't drink alcohol. But they should be getting help and support to navigate the underlying stress and patterns and emotions that are moving them towards that. But if you have a relaxed relationship with alcohol and it's fun for you to do that with friends, of course, then you should because that's your right to do that. What I tend to find is that the people who judge, um, it's projection, right? This kind of self-righteous, "I can't believe you're doing that," et cetera. You turn the mirror on yourself. Where are you out of integrity, my friend? Right? Turn it back on yourself. It's like, do what's right for you. So the way I see it is, you know, like, you know, uh, my wife, my children, they love baking. And they bake some great things, but they're very mindful about it so, you know, it's kind of, um, low sugar. It's whatever. It, it's just done very mindful, and they really enjoy it, and, and I could easily say to myself, "Well, I shouldn't be eating that stuff." But no, I'm at peace with it. I really enjoy it. It connects us as a family, and the following day, I'm back on it. However, I went through a period of time where, um, I was very sugar sensitive, so my nemesis were chocolate, right? So I couldn't do a cheat day on chocolate because when I would have chocolate, it would trigger and activate cravings that would be in my mind the following day. So it was really clear to me, okay, I can't do that. So I can't do alcohol. I can't do sugar. But these things I can easily do and then get back on track again.

Andy Smith 01:11:23 
Yeah. No, that's a good point. So kind of wrapping this one up, if you would want somebody listening to this episode who's got to this point to take one action from here, one action or one kind of change what would you, what would you want that to be?

Dr Mark Atkinson 01:11:40 
I would say is, like, what is the one thing you already know that if you stop doing or started doing would move your health and life in a positive direction? To take a moment to reflect on that, and then to figure out whether you're committed to implementing that in the next couple of days, and if you are, when you're gonna do it, and are you gonna get someone to hold you accountable or keep it private and just do it anyway?

Andy Smith 01:12:06 
Great stuff. How can people contact you, Mark? If somebody does want to work with you on any terms in ca- in, in terms of CEO coaching or, you know, in fact, Cellurate is actually working with you directly now as, as part of our medical board, so you've come on board to advise us, to help us, to help educate people on PEMF, and that's why we want to do a part two with you to actually talk about PEMF and applying it through a medical side of things, 'cause that's really where we struggle to educate people on that side of it. So, you know, anybody else listening to this wants to contact you and wants to pick your brains about something or work with you about, with future projects, where, where do they start?

Dr Mark Atkinson 01:12:48 
Uh, website, drmarkatkinson.com. Got a LinkedIn profile. Um, but as you shared, you know, it's a real joy for me to be able to partner with Cellurate, um, to help educate people around the role of PEMF, how to fit it in with other health optimization, uh, approaches and, and that second podcast we're going to be doing I'm super looking forward to and, uh, going deeper into PEMF.

Andy Smith 01:13:12 
Yeah. Excellent. Thank you very much. And for people listening, you know, you've got access now to the pemfpodcast.com where we've put in loads and loads of different studies, complementary products, all sorts of things on there, so you can go onto that website and find out. If you haven't already, you know, we always ask you at the end of episodes 'cause we want to get the people that are really dedicated to this podcast, please like, subscribe, give us a five-star review. It helps us to get people like Dr. Mark Atkinson on to share his stories about PEMF therapy and about how we can take over the world with this amazing therapy that is completely underutilized at the minute, and it just needs its airtime. So thanks for listening to another episode, and Mark, thanks for your time today.

Dr Mark Atkinson 01:13:54 
Thank you so much.